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========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 21 Wed Jul 21, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:30 EDT Sub: Geneva - Hints and tricks This topic is for the discussion of helpful hints and questions you might have concerning Geneva, the multitasking application environment. 202 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 1 Wed Jul 21, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:30 EDT Please use this topic for specific questions about using Geneva. The other topic can still be used for more general questions about what it is, what it does, and how to get it. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 2 Wed Jul 21, 1993 P.LEFEBVRE [T.K.] at 20:15 EDT Has anbody had any success getting any of the Prospero products to work under Geneva? I cannot get the C or Fortran workbench shells to load nor can I run any program that was compiled with either of these two languages (such as ST Tools). Here is the error message : Execution error: out of memory Then I get an alert box with this message : Process C-BENCH exited with status #-7 (Data on this drive may be damaged!....) These are the flag settings that I'm using : - Limit window handles - Redraw when exit - With Multitask ON or OFF I still get the same message Everything else is turned off. Thanks, -- Paul ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 3 Thu Jul 22, 1993 J.WILES1 at 23:16 EDT OK, here's a few things I've come across using Geneva. 1.) Warp 9 must be installed after Geneva in the Auto folder otherwise Geneva will not install. 2.) I couldn't get DCFormat 3.01 to work under Geneva even by shutting all of the flags off. The program would load but gets stuck at the first dialog box. Alot of DC programs use right mouse clicks to continue and maybe this is a problem. No big deal as I only use this program to format 800k Mac floppies for use with Transverter. 3.) PAD, a shareware drawing program, works with Geneva as a single tasking program. The problem here is that it hogs the whole system and when I only allow XXX amount of memory, it locks up the computer on quitting the program. 4.) When I uncommented the "setenv TOSRUN=" line in the GEM.CNF file and then ran a TOS file, I got an error message stating "Process gnva_tos exited with status #-33 - There is no file with this name". This happens when run from Geneva's screen. When I run a TOS file from NeoDesk, the screen flashes once but nothing else happens. Am I doing something wrong or is this just the case that gvna_tos is nowhere complete yet? Other than these, the past few days have been pretty exciting. I even tried Al's idea of unZIPPING a file in the background while I did something else and it worked great. Put me down also as liking the item selector. I've even gone so far as dumping UIS III for now as the new selector gives me alot of the same features without the cost of using more memory on another Auto program. I LIKE MULTITASKING! Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 4 Fri Jul 23, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:24 EDT Dan, Thanks for the information. Without NeoDesk being set to unload, I am much more able to run programs from it under Geneva. However, I still can't run WordPerfect. It begins to initialize, and the busy object goes on for ever, unless I move it to the menu bar. I can't retrieve anything, and when I quit, it crashes. I can't run WP Start at all. If it matters, I'll keep a record and let you know how many bombs. I am running a Mega STE4, with TOS 2.05. My favourite wordprocessor, That's Write 2.8, also has a minor problem under Geneva. Once in a document I can't move the cursor around with the mouse, though the arrows will do it. I believe it is MultiTOS compatible, so it should be able to multitask, and I think it does: the problem appears whether or not I am in multitask mode. Phasar runs fine. Flash 2 has minor problems of re-drawing, I think, but basically functions okay. I don't get the blank screen. Anything I run from NeoDesk when it is the top window tends to leave the Neodesk screen as it is and only change the menu bar until you actually use the menus. My main problems seem to be instruction errors and bus errors, especially when invoking programs from NeoDesk 3.34. Too early to be too precise, these are only first impressions. I like the window interface. Please don't change the hourglass substitute for the bee, it's fun to watch. Good luck with this important program. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 5 Fri Jul 23, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 05:34 EDT All, Various and sundry Fastload features have singularly caused me the most trouble in using Geneva. If programs bomb when run without issuing an error message, consider the following possibilities: o The program is Squished. Solution: Use DC Squish to re-Squish the file, this time with the TPA flag set. (BTW, if you run DC Squish or DC Xtract as programs you'll notice that icons in widows below them have a tendency to bleed through. At first I went to the trouble of setting up all the appropriate program flags to avoid the problem. The easier solution, I found, is to forgo setting flags and simply rename the programs to ACCessories.) o You set the Fastload flag on a program not originally written to fastload. Solution: Use the NeoDesk Show Information feature to reset the flag. o Warp 9 is installed. Warp 9's fastload feature causes WP Start to crash when it executes WP.PRG, even if *both* WP_START and WP.PRG are listed in the Warp 9 .DAT file as f0 (Fastload Off). Solution: The only thing I've come up with is to turn Warp 9's fastload feature default OFF. As to the Error 7 message associated with ST Tools, I found it worked on my system once I set the Limit memory to 300K flag. And Bill, if the novelty of that shadowy mouse pointer or tumbling hourglass should ever start to get on your nerves (grin) they can be disabled by deleting the setmouse program or commenting out the appropriate line in the DAT file in the \GENEVA\SETMOUSE folder. Dan, Now I find WordPerfect runs all right, though there's one irritating "feature" I'm faced with: if I list files (f5) and look at a file, the file is displayed in a window *below* the bottom of my screen! When editing a WordPerfect file I notice the document position information (page xx line xx) that was once at the bottom of my document window is now gone. Similarly, in Flash 1.60, the editor screen no longer has a top border with line information. Are these Geneva-specific issues, or do these two programs attempt to draw something using a method now illegal in the newer AESs? Also, can you provide any advice as to the relative location of Poolfix4 in my auto folder? Does Geneva in any way affect the need for Poolfix on a TOS 1.60 machine? Should it run before JarXXX, between JarXXX and NeoLoad, between NeoLoad and Geneva, or doesn't it really matter? Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 6 Sat Jul 24, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 02:53 EDT What would be the BARE system setup for running GENEVA, so that I could narrow down the FLAGS needed with difficult programs. I have been having problems with Look It! v1.2 from CodeHead. I've turned off the custom graphics inside Look It!, which I think only affect the text scrolling, and as many different combinations of FLAGS as I could handle. I'm using 2.5 megs on my TOS 1.4 520ST and MONO display. The program runs okay, not Multitasked, but the dropdown menus are messed up, and it won't QUIT. The Desk/ACC dropdown is wrong, like normal TOS, and the File dropdown is terrible. The manual says that the program use a new GEM interface library called InterLib developed by the author for the menu bar. This could be the problem. Any ideas? Last Edited on 24/July/93 at 00:27 hrs Gerry Kichok Hamilton-Burlington-Oakville Atari User Group Librarian ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 7 Sat Jul 24, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 02:59 EDT Jeff, Thanks for the comments on DCFormat and PAD. One nice touch in the file selector is that its list returns to the file you last accessed. Bill, What version of WP are you using? What's the date on the WP.PRG file? Tom, Poolfix should run before the others. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 8 Sat Jul 24, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 10:45 EDT It seems that there are two problems with Look-It. 1) The dropdown menues - you see the Look-It ones and the Geneva ones. 2) The program seems to always run in the background tying up all available free memory with no way to activate or quit the program. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Saturday, July 24, 1993 - 10:33:28 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 9 Sat Jul 24, 1993 S.EAKINS [SCOOTS] at 13:48 EDT Hey all, Anyone else getting the error "Fatal Geneva error GEMDOS called recursively" when quitting some programs, or when trying to quit Neodesk or Geneva? This one error has been causing me to reboot more than any other. I noticed that if I do not use the GEM.CNF upon running Geneva, I don't this error "as often", but it will still happen on occasion. Tom - What was that you were saying about the TPA being set on Squished files? Maybe I am missing something here. Anyone been able to get UIS III to work instead of the built in item selector? Dan said that this will work, but I only get the built in one. Any ideas? Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 10 Sat Jul 24, 1993 R.WALTERS7 [Randy] at 20:18 EDT Scott I have no problems running UIS III. Have you tried to load it via Taskman to make sure that the file is OK? If so, try moving it's position in the Auto folder. Regards Randy ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 11 Sat Jul 24, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 20:19 EDT Scott, I have gotten that error several times, but with no pattern. I think some of the flags need changing with those programs. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Saturday, July 24, 1993 - 8:08:18 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 12 Sun Jul 25, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 00:06 EDT I've also gotten that Fatal Geneva error GEMDOS called recursively quite frequently. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 13 Sun Jul 25, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 03:02 EDT Al, I am running the latest version of WordPerfect, April 91. Try what I may, I can't get WPSTART.PRG to run without crashing, and I think this may be the reason that WP itself will not load up properly. I have taken off fast load bits and Squishing. MEGA STE4, TOS2.05. Scoots, I have had no problems at all with UIS III. Don't ask why! Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 14 Sun Jul 25, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 03:30 EDT I think this question has been asked before, but I didn't record the answer: can one get XCONTROL.ACC V.1.3 on line? I have the original version, and it doesn't work with Geneva, as the manual says. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 15 Sun Jul 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:25 EDT Scott, Yes, the GEMDOS error msg has been hitting me more with the latest beta version that it did before. UIS or any other alternate file selector may be sensitive to the loading order in the auto folder. Try moving it around. Bill, Are you using Warp 9 with WP? The CodeHeads have a patch for the latest WP to make it more stable under W9. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 16 Sun Jul 25, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 07:56 EDT Scott, My point about Squish is simply to ensure Squished files have the TPA button SET. When you say that UIS won't work for you, are you trying to access it from within an application or just from the Geneva Open prompt? Bill, You say you have the Warp 9 fastload (as shown on the Warp9.ACC) disabled? What flags are you using for WP_START.PRG and WP.PRG? I've had good luck so far with the following: Name: WP*.??? Desc: WordPerfect Multitask Limit window handles X Limit memory to 512Kb X Windows off left edge X Redraw upon exiting X Special object types Rounded buttons (a preference, not a compatibility issue) X Automatic keyboard equivs Keep menu bar/desktop flag AES 4.0 extended messages Let us know if that works for you. All, I just received a flyer from ICD mentioning their AdSpeed is on sale. I'm tempted to buy one, now that Geneva makes real multitasking possible on the ST. Is anyone here running Geneva with the AdSpeed? If so, how are they getting along? Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 17 Sun Jul 25, 1993 S.EAKINS [SCOOTS] at 12:28 EDT Tom, Thanks for the squish reply, will check to be sure that all are TPA'd. Also Tom, I strongly urge you to consider the T25 from Jim Allen @ Fast Technologies. I have one that I used on my STe for about a year, and that thing is flawless. Right now it is back at Jim's having the STe adapter taken off, (I recently purchased a Mega 4 ST), so I really can't comment on the T25 and Geneva. Don't expect any problems though. Bill, What does your Auto folder look like? Maybe this will help me to get UIS to work properly. I did try and run it from the task manager after booting into Geneva, and lo and behold, all apps. then used the UIS selector. But, I really don't want to have to load it after I've booted. Al, I'll move UIS around a bit and see what happens. All, Do you think that Path statements have to be added to either the GEM.CNF or the Enviroment within Neodesk to try and eliminate some of these GEMDOS called recursively errors. Dan, if your monitoring this thread, please reply with a few comments. Thanks all, Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 18 Sun Jul 25, 1993 J.KRZYSZTOW [JEFFREY] at 15:37 EDT Tom, I have been running Geneva with an AdSpeed since I started beta testing Geneva. I've had no problems what so ever with it! Also note that there is support in NeoDesk 3.03 & 3.04 to set the processor to 8 or 16 MHz when running a program (the only time I've ever needed to set it to 8 is with some games and viewing Spectrum pictures). Bill, Make sure UIS_III is run AFTER Geneva in your AUTO folder. Other than that is works fine on my system (though is prefer Geneva's!). Jeffrey ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 19 Sun Jul 25, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 21:43 EDT Jeff - ST'er, I have been able to USE Look It! with the Execution Flags set to 'Redraw upon exiting' and 'Keep menu bar/desktop' ONLY with about 800k free before launching, in mono and USING Look It!'s custom graphics routines. The drop down menu is still messed up, but it now exits, usually. Last Edited on 25/July/93 at 19:34 hrs Gerry Kichok Hamilton-Burlington-Oakville Atari User Group ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 20 Mon Jul 26, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:46 EDT Al, I am already using a patched version of WP. Tom, I will try the flags you suggest and let you know results. I don't use the later versions of Warp 9 yet because of the incompatibilities with That's Write, my favourite word processor. So I don't have the means of altering the fast load setting that way. I have individually turned off fast loads in all cases where I've been having difficulty. Scoots, I have a lot of stuff in my auto folder, including MasterCache and the DC Shower programs, but I run UIS III very late, even last. Naturally well after Geneva. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 21 Mon Jul 26, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:59 EDT Tom, I just tried the flags that work for you with WP, and I got much the same result as before. The program partially loads, and a menu bar and window appear on screen, but the busy object continues indefinitely. If I move it to the menu bar it changes to a normal arrow, but I can't retrieve a file, and if I move to Quit I now get three or four bombs and the message that I am trying to invoke GEM recursively, which perhaps makes sense(?). What flags do you use for WP Start? I guess I must have the default flags since I have not set up a special list yet. I am finding that the great majority of the programs I use have to single-task to work properly. This seems to include Flash II 2.1. That's Write will multi- task, I think, but I am not altogether sure. In all circumstances it gives an error message type 1 when exiting to the NeoDesk desktop, and I have not been able to find a way of getting the mouse to behave properly. I take it that any program that does not have a complete GEM window, including the sizing gadget, must single-task. That's Write actually has enhanced sizing rather like Geneva. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 22 Mon Jul 26, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:21 EDT Everyone, Can anyone provide me with a reliable way to always get the GEMDOS message to come up? Scott, The GEMDOS error cannot be avoided by altering PATH statements, or anything like that. Gerry, A bare system would be: AUTO folder: JAR10.PRG GENEVA.PRG NEOLOAD.PRG ACC: TASKMAN.ACC TASKMAN.RSC I'll download the demo version of LookIt and see if I can reproduce the problems you are having. Tom, The location of Poolfix really doesn't matter. Yes, you still need it. I'll also take a look at Look mode and the doc position info problems. They may be related. Bill, Wordperfect definitely doesn't like to have an animated mouse shape for the busy bee. This is even documented in MISCNOTE.TXT. I haven't had any problems retrieving docs, running WP_START, or exiting. Could it be memory related? I'm going to have to try to get a copy of That's Write. Thanks for letting me know. The error status #1 you get when quitting That's Write can be avoided by changing the "report status #'s" option in NeoDesk's Set Preferences dialog. No, it is not true that all programs which do not have awindow resize gadget require being single-tasked, far from it. If you read the section of the manual called "What Program Flags to Change" (or whatever I ended up calling it <smile>) that gives you some guidelines. J.Wiles, 1. Correct. I forgot to mention this in the MISCNOTE. I'm also going to make the error message a little more helpful. 2. Hmmm...I'll check on DCFormat. I assume you tried it in singletasking mode? 3. I'll try to find and test PAD, also. 4. It sounds like gnva_tos.prg could not be found for some reason. Make sure it is in the path listed in TOSRUN= (by default, this is the GENEVA folder on the same disk that Geneva started from.) Paul, I have a short test program someone sent me which must be running into this same problem. It is on my list of things to look at. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 23 Mon Jul 26, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 22:26 EDT Jeffrey, Thanks for the AdSpeed+Geneva information. That's just what I was looking for. Bill, Yes, WP_Start uses those settings as well. If you use the wildcard program name WP*.??? on the flag screen with the settings I gave you, Geneva will use them for both WP.PRG and WP_START.PRG. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 24 Tue Jul 27, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:15 EDT Dan, re - Look-It: I have had the best results with Look-It with the multitasking turned off and the keep desktop flag on. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday, July 27, 1993 - 12:10:36 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 25 Tue Jul 27, 1993 S.EAKINS [SCOOTS] at 00:43 EDT Whoa Dan, I took your suggestion and disabled all my auto folder programs and accessories. Loaded them back in one by one. After each one, I simply tried to quit Neodesk without getting that GEMDOS recursive error. All my auto's loaded, and no problem on quitting Neodesk and running just Geneva. Next, I started with my ACC's. Again, loaded them one by one and simply tried to quit after each had loaded. Guess which one is causing the error......Multidesk! I also am running Data Diet V1.0 and have experienced no problems up to now, but I've got to tell you that you've scarred me with that statment about some problems with DD. What actually are these problems? Back to Multidesk, I've squished all my resident acc's (5) within multidesk, and I see that they unsquish during loading. But, when I try and use this program, alot of both my resident and non-resident acc's bomb. I don't know if this has anything to do with some of the acc's being squished or not. On UIS III, no matter where I put it in the autofolder, it still will not appear when I call for the Item selector. Only after I run it from either Geneva or the Task manager will it appear at all. Yes, I am running the latest version of this and all other software as far as I know, with the exception of Data Diet (I just got notice today that K.Gerdes is releasing V2) One final question to all: How about all of us Geneva users collect at some point all of your individual flag settings and then forwarding this info. to Dan to be included in the final release of Geneva, as a text file purhaps on the disk? (If this is O.K. :) This way, as users purchase othersoftware, they won't have to guess as to what might be the optimal settings for that application. Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 26 Tue Jul 27, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 02:06 EDT Dan, You can get the gemdos message by starting Flash.prg with the flags setting you shipped out. Then switch to neodesk and kill flash with task manager. I believe that should do the trick. I'll test it with flash and verify it. It seems like it's associated with the exiting condition from a program that leaves you in the no menu blank gem screen. Think of the geneva application screen and remove the menu bar items. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 27 Tue Jul 27, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 02:26 EDT Hmmm, forget using Flash as I described to reproduce the Gemdos called recusively error. I guess I've fixed things too well. I'll keep and eye out for this error and a method of reproduce it. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 28 Tue Jul 27, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 18:10 EDT I have two problems to report (or perhaps I'm just doing something wrong!): 1 - Whenever I run a Single Tasking application (i.e. Aladdin, ArcShell, etc.) upon exiting the NeoDesk Recoverable Trashcan (v 1.3) will return the error message "Are you using NeoDesk 2.05 or greater? [Hmmm]" I have to go into the Accessories item in preferences, make some change, and select Yes to updating the ACC_INF file. 2 - I cannot get any Speedo fonts to load under the "Windows" setting in the Task Manager. Speedo fonts do display properly in the Help program. Other than that, this program is quickly becoming as necessary as a monitor and keyboard to my computer! John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 29 Tue Jul 27, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 19:18 EDT With Geneva removing the 6 Desk Accessory limit, MultiDesk Deluxe is not really needed anymore. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday, July 27, 1993 - 7:07:00 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 30 Tue Jul 27, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 19:54 EDT Bill, I don't know where to get the latest version of XCONTROL either. I have version 1.0 and it works fine, _except_ the mouse pointer switches to the 'busy' mode and stays that way until you run another application (it works as a pointer too, it just looks wierd!) John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 31 Tue Jul 27, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:24 EDT Tom, I have been running various stages of beta Genevas on both a TTand an AdSpeed ST. The ST at 16 mHz runs G at about 2/3rds the speed of the TT at 32. Pretty impressive, especially under NVDI, which speeds up G more than Warp does. Bill, I've played with That's Write, and although I understand that a man's word processor is his castle and all that, I strongly suggest you try Calligrapher. It's a dream under G. No, not all programs that don't have proper GEM windows need to single-task. MaxiFile (as a PRG) does fine as an mtasker, for example. Scott, An excellent suggestion on the flags. Dan has already asked everyone to send him info on typical situations in which flags have to be set differently. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 32 Tue Jul 27, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 21:07 EDT SCOOTS >I also am running Data Diet V1.0 IMHO, get V 2.1! >Yes, I am running the latest version of this and all other software as >far as I know, with the exception of Data Diet (I just got notice >today that K.Gerdes is releasing V2) Version two of DD has been out for ages! I presume you mean version of SQUISH? That is SQUISH II. Back to the topic at hand. Please see category two topic 12 for further information on SQUISH II and DD V2.1. Brian ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 33 Wed Jul 28, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 02:30 EDT Multidesk Deluxe is still nice if you don't want 27 accesories all loaded at once taking up 4 MB of memory. Multdesk deluxe is conveneant and manages memory nice. JOhn ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 34 Wed Jul 28, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 02:40 EDT Jeff, I think (I hope?) you'll still find useful ways to employ MultiDesk under a multitasking environment. While it is true that some of the power of MultiDesk Deluxe can be duplicated under Geneva, the concept of a desk accessory still exists and MultiDesk will continue to be the default method of managing them. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 35 Wed Jul 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT Jeff, MDD is exceptionally handy under G. Those DAs that you don't want to take up memory (and don't want to load on the fly, thus fragmenting memory when they are inserted between two apps that are later exited). Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 36 Wed Jul 28, 1993 J.WILES1 at 07:34 EDT Bill and John, I picked up XCONTROL version 1.2 on Delphi a week ago. It does get along with Geneva except for a minor flaw at the bottom of the window in HIGH rez. As stated in the docs, this is not Genevas fault but XCONTROLS which is fixed in version 1.3 . I don't know why it never made it here on GEnie but if you would like me to upload it, I will. The file I have is a little over 20K which contains only XCONTROL and no CPXs. Hopefully, if version 1.3 is done, someone will get it on the boards for everyone to use. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 37 Wed Jul 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:30 EDT Everyone, I agree with Scott, that any flag settings you find useful should be sent to me for inclusion with Geneva. They are stored in GENEVA.CNF. This is actually just a text file, so you could even make things easier on me by just sending me the ones you have changed/created. Jeff, MultiDesk still has some very useful features that cannot be done directly with Geneva. John G., 1. Yes, I can see where that would be a problem. A change needs to be made to NeoDesk to fix this. 2. I'm going to look into that. Scott, I was a bit hasty when I said not to use Data Diet. The problem seems to have to do with DD's feature to clean up the working directory when you quit a program. Just turn this feature off. I'll definitely have to try MultiDesk some more. None of the original beta testers had any of these problems, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing worng. UIS is on my list of things to look at. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 38 Wed Jul 28, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 21:03 EDT Tomas, Of course I will still use MultiDesk Deluxe under any enviroment. I was just pointing out that you do not have to have it to load in Desk Accessories because someone was having some problems with it and Geneva. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wednesday, July 28, 1993 - 8:44:38 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 39 Wed Jul 28, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 21:46 EDT Al, Geneva at 2/3 TT speed? Sounds good. Thanks for the feedback. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 40 Wed Jul 28, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 22:14 EDT Dan, Thanks for the point about WordPerfect and the mouse. However, I can't run the mouseset program either from Neodesk or from Geneva. It may be loaded for a microsecond, I'm not sure, but it then exits if so. So until I can do that, it looks as if I can't use WP under Geneva. (I was too absorbed in trying to learn from the manual to remember about the notes, but sure enough, there it is.) I can't get Flash 2 to draw its menu bars properly, though it works fine otherwise and seems to multitask. I can't remember if anyone else has had the same problem or found a solution to it. Al, As you say, chacun a son gout. However, I have been using That's Write since it first came out in North America, and I am more than satisfied. Version 3, due out shortly, will support Bitstream fonts and have PostScript output. I tried the demo of Calligrapher, and I could find nothing important to me that was superior in Cal., and it appeared to be quite a bit slower than That's Write. But you might feel differently. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 41 Thu Jul 29, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 01:03 EDT Bill, To get flash 2 working properly turn off multitasking. Actually I used the flash.prg settings already in the flags file. The only mods I made were to rename it to flash*.prg and turn off the memory limit flag. Now flash 2 works good except for the top line and 1/2 at startup are colored and the arrows on the horizontal scroll bar are missing. Besides these minor problems the program works fine. I've been using it every day. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 42 Thu Jul 29, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:11 EDT Jeff, thanks, I would appreciate having XControl 1.2 uploaded. As you say, perhaps this will stimulate someone to upload 1.3. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 43 Thu Jul 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:17 EDT Bill, In fairness to the Codeheads, their demo of Callig is impressive. But the actual program is MUCH more impressive, especially in its handling of text formatting, graphics, chapters and so on. The spelling checker and thesaurus are first-rate, too, and work very quickly. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 44 Thu Jul 29, 1993 P.LEFEBVRE [T.K.] at 18:37 EDT Dan, I cannot get GNVA_TOS.PRG to work. When I uncomment the tosrun line in GEM.CNF, I get this error message whenever I try to run a TOS program : Process GNVA_TOS exited with status #-33 (there is no file with this name) I am using a minimal setup of just Geneva, NeoDesk, and TASKMAN on a 4 meg MegaSTe. -- Paul ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 45 Thu Jul 29, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 19:12 EDT Dan, Here's a suggestion for your file selector (BTW, I like it!) -- Have some sort of alternate font for hidden files (greyed would be nice, or a checkmark). Right now I have all my hidden files showing up, confusing me to no end! John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 46 Thu Jul 29, 1993 J.WILES1 at 21:09 EDT Bill, Uploaded XCONTROL 1.2 this morning. Once it is released, it will be file #29524. There were no DOCs with it so I don't know what was improved or fixed except it works with Geneva alot better that 1.0 . Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 47 Thu Jul 29, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 22:08 EDT Paul, >I cannot get GNVA_TOS.PRG to work. When I uncomment the tosrun line >in GEM.CNF, I get this error message whenever I try to run a TOS >program : >Process GNVA_TOS exited with status #-33 (there is no file with this >name) Are the paths correct in the GEM.CNF file?. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thursday, July 29, 1993 - 9:55:12 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 48 Thu Jul 29, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 23:13 EDT I'm uploading Xcontrol 1.31. I just got it off the internet. Seems to work ok with geneva. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 49 Fri Jul 30, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 02:17 EDT Dan, Do you want any flag settings we find useful to be sent to you here on the BB for everyone to benefit from or through private GEmail? Gerry Kichok ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 50 Fri Jul 30, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:19 EDT Jeff, Thanks, I will download it when it appears. John, even better! I will download _that_. Everyone, Flash 2.11 seems to behave exactly like 2.1 under Geneva. It still works fine, but still fails to draw the bar immediately under the menu bar and the bottom scrolling bar has missing gadgets. I have now also started to get the message about NeoDesk 2.05 and the accessory list when I try to run the trashcan. I used to get this a lot with earlier versions of NeoDesk. I can't think why it has started to appear now when previously all was well. Of course I am experimenting with flags to get everything running as well as I can. Any explanations of why the SetMouse program doesn't work? Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 51 Fri Jul 30, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:53 EDT I seem to get the version 2.05 message about the trashcan only if I have run a program -- in this case single-tasking. On first booting the trashcan runs okay. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 52 Fri Jul 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:19 EDT Paul, Make sure GNVA_TOS.PRG is located in the PATH sattement in GEM.CNF. Or, just drag a TOS app to the GNVA_TOS.PRG icon to test it out.... Bill, I have never had luck with Setmouse in my setup, even though I can get it to run fine if I strip things down (which I can't afford to -- too many things running on these machines that I can't do without). Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 53 Fri Jul 30, 1993 P.LEFEBVRE [T.K.] at 19:01 EDT Jeff, Yes, the paths are set up correctly... setenv TOSRUN=\GENEVA\GNVA_TOS.PRG which is where it is. Al, The GENEVA directory is in the PATH statement in GEM.CNF... I've tried to drag a TOS app to the GNVA_TOS.PRG icon, but that doesn't work either. OK, just tried it again... the screen clears (?), GNVA_TOS.PRG runs, loads the TOS app, then immediatly exits back to NeoDesk and I'm left with a messed up window on the screen that I cannot remove. It I try to terminate it by control-clicking on its name, the computer freezes. -- Paul ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 54 Fri Jul 30, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 23:19 EDT I just received NeoDesk 3.03, 3.04 patch and Geneva today. I'm using a STacy with 4 megs. I installed NeoDesk 3.03 and did the 3.04 patch. Installed Geneva and think that I did everything right but when I boot I get this: Something already hooked into exec_os. Cannot load Geneva. The other thing is that when I park the head on my internal drive I get a "Damaged C: drive data error", "loading" at the top of the screen and a "<m sense: $FE C0,0)>" at the top right corner. It's trying to reload NeoDesk and since I'm parking the head, an error sounds correct. Since the Desktop is ROM and NeoDesk isn't, right? Is this a STacy problem because it doesn't auto- park? Maybe the answer for that is in the book or DOCS but I was in a hurry to see Geneva work, darn... Oh! I forgot after the " C: drive error" clicking on CANCEL gives "not a executable program (TOS error #-66). [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 55 Fri Jul 30, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 23:28 EDT Setmouse works on my system ok. I have tos 1.4. DCshower stuff, speedo, and various other goodies. TK, gnva_tos.prg does the same thing basically on my system. I tossed it after haveing problems. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 56 Sat Jul 31, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 01:21 EDT Bill, What does your AUTO folder look like?. (In the unsorted condition). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Saturday, July 31, 1993 - 1:12:18 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 57 Sat Jul 31, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 19:48 EDT Bill, Same problem I am having. I think Dan knows there is a problem there somewhere (with the ACC_INF.DAT file). John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 58 Sat Jul 31, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 20:45 EDT Jeff/John: Here is my AUTO folder: jar10 cache90 clip foldr100 poolfix3 tos14fx2 lgselect warp9_st pinhead neoload geneva I've been diddling with it and if I leave the warp9 off I get a Fatal Error: GEMDOS called recursively. I get 4 bombs and the pointer. If I leave neoload off too, I get the top 3 menu pull downs where I got the error msg. I get another 4 bombs but no pointer. Just having jar10 and geneva, I get 11 bombs and the menu with no pointer. Adding tos14fx2 drops it to 4 bombs. What are you using John? A STacy?? [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 59 Sat Jul 31, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 21:53 EDT John: I can't the file you mentioned(ACC_INF.DAT) anywhere! Is that a file created by Geneva? I never get that far<g>. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 60 Sun Aug 01, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:23 EDT Bill, Several things, If you have the latest version of Warp-9 then you do not need PinHead. Did you try changing the running order to: Jar30, Geneva, NeoLoad. Note that you should increase the number in JAR to 30. Also note that NeoLoad must run after Geneva or you will have trouble. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunday, August 1, 1993 - 12:14:50 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 61 Sun Aug 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 00:29 EDT Paul, I dunno, then. The TOS-GEM app works ok on the TT and ST here -- ok meaning that it runs and lets me run a TOS app, although it's obviously not a finished piece of software, and often leads to lockups. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 62 Sun Aug 01, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 15:30 EDT What is WINNI.APP and where is it (or should it be)? My NeoDesk 3.03->3.04 upgrade failed (disks on the way to Gribnif), so I've been trying to run Geneva from the bare Atari desktop. Geneva runs, loads the specified accessories, then flashes a "Process WINNI exited with status #-33 (There is no file with this name)" message and then dies with 4 bombs (GEMDOS called recursively) when I click on the "OK" button. If I run Geneva with the Control key depressed to bypass the initializing options, I don't encounter the WINNI problem. Oh, yes, I commented the SHELL NeoDesk line out of GEM.CNF, since I don't have NeoDesk 3.04 yet. Any suggestions or ideas? ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 63 Sun Aug 01, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 16:21 EDT Jeff: I changed JAR10 to JAR30 and put Neoload after Geneva, just using those three I get the "GemDos called recursively" error. Funny, if I leave off all my normal ACCs and use only the NeoDesk ACCs, it pops to NeoDesk(looks like twice) before it locks up with no pointer. Maybe after the weekend, Dan will jump in and have some answers. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 64 Sun Aug 01, 1993 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 17:40 EDT I haven't seen Xcontrol version 1.31 in the libraries, although it was uploaded on July 29 by John Hoffman. Have I missed it or what? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Sunday, August 1, 1993 12:28 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 65 Sun Aug 01, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 23:21 EDT Hmmm, after reading that the recursive error may corrected by changeing Jar10 to jar30 I ran off and changed mine. After rebooting the Warp9 control panel failed to load :( Needless to say I'm back to jar10. Jason, Seems that Xcontrol is being held up until Atari sanctions it. Xcontrol is copywrited software and can't be put on Genie until Atari approves it. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 66 Mon Aug 02, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 01:09 EDT John, JAR.PRG should have nothing to do with the Warp-9 control panel failing to load. Mine loads in great with it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Monday, August 2, 1993 - 1:03:06 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 67 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:28 EDT Mike, Which version of the beta Geneva are you running? I have been happily running G without a shell of any kind, without getting the WINNI message. I'll send WINNI up if you folks don't have it. It's a demo that opens 256 windows under G. Bill, If NeoDesk is loading twice, it's being loaded by the desktop.inf or newdesk.inf file and by the shell command in GEM.CNf (maybe). Take it out of the desktop file and out of any auto-boot manager like SuperBoot or DeskManager or ElfBoot or ... XBoot or (sheesh, there are a lot of them!). Dan W., Setmouse now works fine on the TT. Don't know what I did to fix it. I *love* the animated hourglass. BTW, the project is nearly done. You'll get an e-mailed copy this week. It's going to end up at 250K or more (in Callig). Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 68 Mon Aug 02, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 06:47 EDT Al, I just received my Geneva package on 31 July. The disk says it's version 0.95 and the info screen says it's version Jul 14 1993. If WINNI.APP comes on the Geneva disk, I haven't found it. Other than the error message, the only reference to WINNI I've recognized is the mention in the "Running it as a Program" section of the manual, which seems to imply that its call is coded (somewhere) in the beta version of Geneva. Bypassing GEM.CNF and GENEVA.CNF with the [Control] key puts serious limitations on the "ease" factor of running Geneva, but I can manually open (load) Task Manager, etc., and then play to my heart's content with multitasking. Well, my heart isn't actually content within a mere 4 megs, but that's Geneva's fault for expanding my machine's capabilities and, the more it can do, the more beyond that new horizon I want it to do! Thanks! - Mike ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 69 Mon Aug 02, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:34 EDT Mike, Are you running POOLFIX? If not, I suggest you do. This might help the crashing. WINNI is a testing program that I often use, and I accidentally left that in the code. This only happens when you run Geneva as a program from the desktop. The best way around this is to save a NEWDESK/DESKTOP.INF file which has a program set to autoexecute, and put that in the same folder that GENEVA runs out of. Jeff, You really only need to increase the number of jar entries if a program complains, though having it too high really doesn't take much memory. What's wrong with running Neoload before Geneva? Bill T., The exec_os message is because you had another program in the AUTO folder which used this vector loading before Geneva. Move GENEVA.PRG earlier in the AUTO folder. In your case, it has to be before WARP9_ST. You should make sure NeoDesk is not set to Unload for Execute. What is happening is that after the drive parks, NeoDesk is trying to reload itself and cannot because of the state the drive is in. John was referring to NEO_INF.DAT, which is created by NeoDesk when you save the ACC list. It sounds like you have NeoDesk set to autoexecute. As the README file says, you must remove this if you are also going to use the "shell" line in GEM.CNF. Gerry, You can send them here, but it would be easiest for me if you and everyone else send a letter with little else, like: Here are my flags for xxx.prg: blah blah balh John G., Hidden files show up? Hmph. They're not supposed to be there. I will make some change for hidden files, perhaps greyed-out. Bill, SETMOUSE does just run and quit. After it runs, though, the mouse should be set to another shape, assuming you use the default SETMOUSE.DAT. I'm going to be getting a copy of Flash 2 to test with. According to John at Missionware, you are probably best off using version 2.11. There are patch programs in the library. There is a very good reason, which is kind of complex to go into, that will cause the "2.05" message to happen whenever you run any program in single- tasking mode. I need to fix this in NeoDesk. Paul, Change the line to be "setenv TOSRUN=c:\geneva\gnva_tos.prg". This is due to an oversight in Geneva. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 70 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:04 EDT So again, Delphi and the 'Net have the new Xcontrol, while GEnie awaits Atari's decision on whether to support the userbase. Sigh! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 71 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:03 EDT Mike, I'm uploading WINNI. It's in GEM-View anyway, or used to be, and it's freely distributable. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 72 Mon Aug 02, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 21:11 EDT Dan, I have been using the .95 BETA version of Geneva for a few days and I have had only one recurring problem (a kind of big one if you ask me - not that you asked me but here I go anyway <G>) I keep on getting the "FATAL ERROR IN GENEVA: GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY" message EVERY TIME I use Geneva. This always happens upon quitting programs; sometimes one program, sometimes many programs at a time. No matter what I do (change flag settings, change order of my auto folder, reboot, etc.) I always get this message upon exiting a program. I can't seem to track down any sequence of events that cause this message to pop up on my screen. but I do know that it happens when I quit programs. I use Pagestream 2.2, Works 1.2, EDHAK 2.37, CardFile 4, Silhouette, Prism Paint, 7-UP, Outline, and many others. Geneva has displayed this message upon quitting each and every one of these programs at one time or an other. I read your post about POOLFIX4 and POOLFX92 but neither of these programs makes these GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY message any less frequent. I have booted on a bare system (no accs. and only POOLFIX4 and GENEVA) but the message still rears its ugly head. I've tried this on a color monitor system, mono monitor system and Moniterm monitor system. All with the same results. I have a 4-meg Mega ST with Adspeed. If you have any suggestions about how I can get the "FATAL ERROR IN GENEVA: GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY" message to stop visiting the top of my screen, please let me know. Other than this annoying problem, I have certainly been more productive than before (on my single tasking <GASP> ST system). I _DO_ realize that this is a BETA version of Geneva and all I can say is I can't wait for the version 1.0 release (I've used some commercial release version of various software with more bugs than this beta version of GENEVA - Word-Up comes to mind <G>). Keep up the GREAT WORK .......... Take Care >>>>> Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 73 Mon Aug 02, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 21:22 EDT Dan, > What's wrong with running Neoload before Geneva? I thought you stated this in the docs somewhere, that Neoload must run after Geneva. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Monday, August 2, 1993 - 8:41:54 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 74 Mon Aug 02, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 21:41 EDT How do you what value to put in the name of JARxx.PRG? I have been usuing JAR10.PRG and it seems to work. What happens if you have a different number? ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 75 Mon Aug 02, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 22:25 EDT Dan, No POOLFIX here -- I'm running TOS 1.2 on a stock MEGA ST4. This also makes it tough to set a program to autoexecute, I think. However, I'm expecting some TOS 1.4 chips and an AdSpeed this week, so that will give me a different world to live in. I'll download the WINNI that Al's uploading (thanks, Al!) and that should take care of me for now. I hope. - Mike ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 76 Mon Aug 02, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 22:50 EDT Dan: Okay, I did all you said and now I get everything loaded without errors. {{I think removing NeoDesk from auto-ex and using the shell did the trick, something did. I may be the first person here to try Geneva with a MIDI program. I use CuBase from Steinberg and X-oR from Dr. T.s. A quick run of CuBase, none of the buttons work right now. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 77 Mon Aug 02, 1993 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 23:35 EDT Winni is in the Gemview package. (at least it was in the 2.23 !) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 78 Mon Aug 02, 1993 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 23:38 EDT Bill: Xor seems to run ok. I use Dr.t's Omega II. It runs buggy with G, even when singletasking. But I can get it to run, several add on modules however don't run (yet) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 79 Tue Aug 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:58 EDT Mayer, hang in there. There is a problem in your setup somehow. We'll find the cure. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 80 Tue Aug 03, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 20:47 EDT Al, Do you think the problem is in my setup of Geneva (flasg, etc) or in my auto folder configuration. I was reading other people were having the "GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY" error. Some even stated that it was the must common error message they got. Do any other TOS 1.4 users have a similaer problem with Geneva even after using POOLFIX? If so let me know how you fixed the problem. (It's driving me nuts) Thanks ....... Mayer '*s ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 81 Tue Aug 03, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 22:07 EDT Mayer: I'm using a STacy(1.4) and POOLFIX3. I'm havig lots of problems with CuBase, a MIDI sequencer, all I can get is the menus to drop down. I can't load anything or press any buttons, click on any thing. That's in the single tasking mode too! Dr. T's X-oR works fine as does Interlink but I have gotten that GEMDOS error terminating a program or two. Is POOLFIX3 the problem? There is a POOLFIX4 but what's it for? [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 82 Tue Aug 03, 1993 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 22:15 EDT Geneva Fans- Having only used G for a couple of days here's what I have to report.. So far very few programs have had real trouble.. On my machine (TOS 1.4 4megs [with believe it or not a _german_ accellerator card HBS 240 - 16Mhz :)] ) 1. Good compatibality - only a couple of programs that won't multi- task, those in the previously identifed files ALADDIN and DEGAS ELITE. and one program that simply _wont_ run PHASAR (version 2.34, yes I know it's old ) can't get it to work no matter _what_ the settings. 2. One accessory that bombs - a german shareware ditty that shows you you drives in a graphical tree structure. I really haven't used MDD in the accessory mode but it makes a great launcher for *.ACC in the program mode. Just double click on an accessory, use it then close it and everything's gone - If you load an accessory with Geneva - open the task manager, load an accessory, use it, close it, terminate the process - a little more involved. 3. Multi-tasking a program like Calamus is great! Bear in mind of course until the preemptive version is released, operations that would not normally allow you menu access will _still_ lock you into that program/task (as Aladdin does). 4. The file selector is _top notch_ in my book! Having used Selectric for the last year, I wouldn't give up the 'automatic name matching' function of these selectors for anything. (and thanks DMC for allowing us to ignore _Calamus's_ file selector in your new upgrade!) 5. If you use NeoDesk (why wouldn't you?) keep the 'unload for execute' option OFF for everything. This was the largest problem I have encountered in my Geneva use. Overall? I'd say its the best system program/utility I've EVER used. Of course, your milage may vary. This is a _productivity_ increasing tool, and if you're not very productive to begin with, Geneva is just a pretty toy. P.S. Dan - I'm suprised it hasn't been asked but, is there a vitural memory option planned for sleeping tasks any time in the future? Is this possible? It can only get better from here! Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 83 Tue Aug 03, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 22:59 EDT Dan, I have been playing around with my set up and I think I have found out what has been making my system get the dreaded "GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY" message. I TOTALLY alleviate the problem by _NOT_ using Multidesk Deluxe. I hope that I am wrong but MDD semms to be the cause of my problems ... maybe there is a work around but I can't figure it out. The only sure fire way of getting rid of the "GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY" message is for me to disable (not use) MultiDesk Deluxe. If you or anyone has more info ... let me know. Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 84 Wed Aug 04, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:42 EDT Dan, I still can't get SETMOUSE.PRG to work, even after removing everything except SETMOUSE.DAT from the folder in which it resides. Result, I still can't use WordPerfect under Geneva. Unfortunately, I am finding that the majority of the programs I use don't multitask, but this is their problem, not Geneva's, and no doubt upgrades will be forthcoming for many of them. In any case, the new interface is very nice, and I like having so much control over it. The freedom with desk accessories makes for a great simplification. I don't really need alternative boot set ups any more. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 85 Wed Aug 04, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:28 EDT I have run into a new problem tonight. Using UIS III (latest version) I find that I can't open a folder when locating a file for some programs to operate on. Using Geneva's own file selector cures the problem, but on first appearance in these circumstances it displays an image of part of the scroll bar in the window, which disappears once one goes to work on the file. These things happen with LHA 2.0 and with Pamflite. Possibly other programs,but that is where I found the problems. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 86 Wed Aug 04, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 02:06 EDT Bill, Oops, my fault. The error message mentions the ACC_INF.DAT file, but what _fixes_ the trashcan problem is reloading the NEO_INF.DAT file! I guess the ACC_INF.DAT thing was for older versions of NeoDesk. John P.S. As you can see in msg #69 - Dan is hot on this problem... Thanks Dan! ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 87 Wed Aug 04, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 06:52 EDT Al, Thanks for WINNI. Geneva runs just fine for me now, as a program. Boy, this is fun! I hope Dan sells a copy of Geneva to every ST/STe/TT/Falcon owner -- I don't see how anyone could resist it. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 88 Wed Aug 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:23 EDT Mayer, That GEMDOS error is the most common one I get, too. It pops up more now that it did in previous versions. I'm not sure how to get around it; I see it on the TOS 1.04 ST as well as on the TT. I'll try taking MDD out to see what happens, and let you know. Dan? (The TT isn't useing Poolfix, so that can't be the problem....) Martin, Thanks for the excellent report. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 89 Wed Aug 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:41 EDT Mike, I don't see how it could be resisted either. I *hate* booting up the old wayk, as I do now and then just to remind myself of what pain is like. :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 90 Wed Aug 04, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 23:10 EDT I tried removing MultiDesk and it didn't help my problems at all. It appears and I guess that I didn't understand that even when a prg. is loaded from NeoDesk it is still under Geneva because my problem program (CuBase) won't work from NeoDesk either. Is there the possibility that some programs might never run, noway nohow? I understood at it's worst, it would have to be single tasking and that doesn't work either for CuBase unless I'm missing something! [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 91 Thu Aug 05, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 03:51 EDT Dan, For some reason I now seem to have changed the mouse pointers successfully, but it doesn't let me run WordPerfect after all. It now seems to load up okay, but crashes on exiting. If I run WPSTART.PRG I get the Called GEMDOS recursively error. A further peculiarity, this time with NeoDesk 3.04. If I have the notepad picture loaded I can't change the desktop pattern. It changes in the ikon editor screen, but not on return to NeoDesk. Not very important, but not as it should be. Is this a peculiarity of Geneva or of NeoDesk? Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 92 Thu Aug 05, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:07 EDT Bill, It's possible that some apps won't run at all, no matter what, under an operating system that is not identical to the one in your Atari, but I it's rare under Geneva; I have only seen it happen a couple of time in beta testing. Single-tasking mode combined with the setting of the flags has worked nearly all the time, and when it hasn't, we're pretty sure that the program in question is not following some of the rules. Has anyone else had luck running Cubase under Geneva? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 93 Thu Aug 05, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:56 EDT Martin, Thanks for the notes. I'll see if I can dig up a copy of Phasar. Also, let me know what the name of the German DA you tried is, and if it's up here on GEnie. I would not look forward to writing virtual memory software from the ground up. I have heard that there is German software to do this, so perhaps it could be incorporated in the future. Mayer, OK, I'm definitely going to play some more with MDD. Does it make any difference what resident DA's you have loaded into it? Jeff, Don't think so... Mike O, Yeah, you don't need POOLFIX with TOS 1.2. Sigh. So much for that hope. I really want to find the reason for these messages. It's most likely a TSR you are all running. Bill T., Most MIDI programs really don't like having anything else resident in RAM, as you probably know by now. I am not sure if I can get Geneva to work with CuBase, but I am going to contact the authors to try. Bill N., Without SETMOUSE, you should get a normal "Atari" arrow mouse cursor. With it, you should get a sort of mostly-white arrow, with a black shadow. Assuming you have the Atari arrow mouse, when you run WordPerfect, things will be better, but not perfect. I just realized why, too. I'm going to see if I can adjust this. By your UIS report, I assume you mean that when you click on the name of a folder, it does not open? I just tried UIS 3.3, and it works fine. Do you have a different version? I recall some of the older ones acting up with early versions of FormDoIt back when I was working on that. The scroll bar in the Geneva item selector is something that others have mentioned, but I have yet to duplicate it. The reasone you cannot change the desktop pattern when using the notepad, is that the notepad is a Degas picture that happens to have the grey pattern as the background. You could change it by using Degas or a similar program. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 94 Thu Aug 05, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 19:17 EDT Dan: I quized Rick on CIS alot about MIDI programs and as he said you guys don't know on end of a MIDI cord from the other<g>. I did give him the name of a friendly guy at Stienberg/Jones who has NeoDesk. There is a CuBase forum also on CIS and the programmer of CuBase does check in from time to time and he even speaks English. The programmer is Wolfgang Kundrus, CIS #71333,2052 and the ID# is assigned to Steinberg/Germany. Strange thing today with Geneva disabled using only NeoDesk! From a power up I got a buss error and it said to press "R" for registers which I did, which it showed, which I didn't understand. It never happened from then on doing a CTRL/SHIFT/DELETE. I'm sure learning how to bypass my HD driver lately! [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 95 Thu Aug 05, 1993 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 20:02 EDT Bill: Next time you talk to Wolfgang, please do invite him over here. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 96 Thu Aug 05, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 21:21 EDT Dan, I just wanted you to know that I CAN'T beleive what a grat job you've done with Geneva!! It is exactly what I've been looking for as far as a multi-tasking/task switcing environment is concerned for my Atari ST computer (Mega ST4 to be exact). Ever since I stopped using Multi-Desk Deluxe, I've had no (ZERO) problems with ANY program I've tried to run. The only minor problems have easily been worked around. I've tried (and abandoned) various multi-tasking/task switcing environments such as MTOS (ugh!) and Multi-GEM (UGH UGH!!!) with VERY limited or no luck. Geneva is almost bullet proof for all of the appliccations I use. Even though it is a BETA version I'm using (0.95), I am getting results that I couldn't even come close to with the multi-tasking/task switcing environments mentioned above. EXCELLENT! Concerning my MDD set up: The only resident acc I have loaded into MDD is the Warp 9 control panel. I don't know if it makes any difference if there are no resident accs or not. The Warp 9 control panel works fine if it is loaded as a normal acc (outside of MDD). I've noticed something else about MDD. If I load it as an acc from the Task Manager and not as a normal acc, it is less prone to get the GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY message. However, it seems to be dependant upon how much memory is free as to wether or not it will load non resident accs. In other words it does not seem to know how much memory it has set aside for loading non-resident accs if it is loaded as an acc from the task manager. I must note that although I don't get the message, I _DO_ consistantly get the "A BUS ERROR HAS OCCURED (2 BOMBS)" message from NEO Desk and my system locks up when I try to load accs from within a program. I don't know what the problems is so I just disable MDD and load any accs that I need directly from the Task Manager. Hope this helps ...... Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 97 Thu Aug 05, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 23:03 EDT Darlah: That CIS account number is one of those special ones. In the MIDI area here, Steinberg/Jones reps are here. Some of those deals are beyond me and you both. S/J are new to CIS as is Dr. T's. Seems to be more Geneva action here! [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 98 Fri Aug 06, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:07 EDT I have noticed another new phenomenon with Geneva and Neodesk 3.04. When using MultiDesk Deluxe one frequently gets a warning that some other application may have grabbed the vectors an accessory is using. It seems that with this set-up the effects of ignoring the warning are a badly messed display next time the accessory is invoked. At least that is what I find with Cardfile. I noted earlier that Cardfile will not send to another application from MDD under Geneva, though it would from GEM. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 99 Fri Aug 06, 1993 R.WHITTAM [Ron - ABUG] at 01:29 EDT Hmmmmmm, anyone testing GENEVA on a standard 1040 ST? How does the performance stack up with more then one application running? MultiGEM produced quite a slowdown (even with Quick ST 2.2 running). . . .just curious. Ron - ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 100 Fri Aug 06, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:31 EDT Dan, Thanks for the reply. I have the latest version of UIS III (3.32). It may be that the problem was specific to a particular situation. Perhaps I should try it some more and see what happens. I originally had the animated hourglass and the shadowed pointer. Now I have the regular Atari pointer and bee. Does that mean that if I run SETMOUSE.PRG again I can get back to your more interesting versions once the mystery of WordPerfect has been solved? I hope so. Your answer about the desk top pattern is not unexpected. After I wrote I started to use a bit of logic and reached the same conclusion rather late in the day! Anyway, it is no big deal. Given the choice, I prefer the notepad to the fancy backdrop. Another thing I have noticed. When I get the dreaded "GEMDOS called recursively" message it says that any key will break. No key I have tried does. The only solution is to do a reset. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 101 Fri Aug 06, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 06:41 EDT Bill, >I have noticed another new phenomenon with Geneva and Neodesk 3.04. >When using MultiDesk Deluxe one frequently gets a warning that some >other application may have grabbed the vectors an accessory is using. >It seems that with this set-up Are you by chance loading the Warp-9 Control Panel into MultiDesk Deluxe?. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Friday, August 6, 1993 - 6:17:12 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 102 Fri Aug 06, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:46 EDT Bill, You got a msg from the system debugger built into NeoDesk. Ron, I turn my wife's ST into a standard one by switching the AdSpeed to 8mHz, and G runs fine. The speed is just barely slower than stock for some operations, and faster for others. (G is faster at window operations, for example.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 103 Fri Aug 06, 1993 J.WILES1 at 08:00 EDT Dan, I never paid attention to the file information settings in Neodesk that had to do with MultiTos until now, now that I'm using Geneva. And now I can't find any information about what these settings are for. Should we be setting any program which is multitasking to Global, Private or Super? It's probably in the docs somewhere but I can't find it. Al, A while back, in the 7-UP topic, I think it was you who mentioned a text editor called EDITH. Have you tried this editor with Geneva installed? Edith has a menu bar inside a window yet when using it with Geneva installed, the menu bar is not there. This takes away a lot of it's usefullness. I've tried a few different settings but no go when using Geneva. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 104 Fri Aug 06, 1993 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 20:23 EDT Dan- Thanks for the virtual memory info. Seems since you can put a program 'to sleep' you could simply dump its memory to the drive a' la' Revolver (things aren't _always_ as they seem). In retrospect though, I guess the only way it could be done is with communication with the actual program. Maybe with your neodesk programs? By the way that acc that killed me was TREEVIEW.LZH No. 23483 on Genie. See if it dies for you. Also, are you planning to let Neodesk also accept the keyboard versions of clicking on the closer, etc.. I hate still having to press Control-W to close _only_ the Neodesk windows. By the way all, I have only seen the the recursive GEMDOS error a couple of times, and early in my exploits with Geneva. Guess I'm lucky... I _do_ seem to have problems with the memory limiting flag.. Even with Steno. If I set the flag to limit memory to Steno, it locks up when I exit Steno. Anybody able to confirm this? Or is it just me? Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 105 Fri Aug 06, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 22:05 EDT Geneva is an impressive achievement! Even if this were not a beta program I'd be more than satisfied with the compatibility, and simply amazed by the features! So far most all programs work great, especially if I load them and don't quit, just sleep at most. UIS3 works fine, currently last in my AUTO. But, my Tempus2, (doctored to use the built-in file selector) locks up when I load a file using UIS3. If I install UIS3 from Neodesk, all is fine! (luckily I have a NEO_ACC, so just had it exec UIS3 on loading!) Laser, oh that Laser. I can use it to compile and link, because I have those prgs ram-resident, but I can't run any other programs from within the Laser shell. That is, I can run them but they lock up Laser on exit. Also, funny re-draws occur on re-entering Laser. But, I can have umpteen agreeable apps/accs loaded, AND still have Laser in single-task mode and edit/compile/link successfully. But, only if the others are loaded before Laser. After Laser is loaded, any other attempt to load returns a memory failure, even with Laser limited in memory. But, this is no real surprise, the Laser shell does lots of strange things, I hear. Another of the unfriendly apps I've become dependent on (bad choices over the years!) is Timeworks DTP, and the old version works fine from Geneva! No problems at all just running and exiting (single-tasking, that is), but again, one it's loaded, if I return to Neodesk I can't load any more programs. The error returned is bad disk, check connections! (no fear, tho, just bugs) I had 8 accs loaded, Flash2, Tempus2, and Laser loaded, called Genie to brag on Geneva, and Laser crashed from within Flash2! Pride goeth before a crash? I think the file selector is fine in 1-column mode, I just have gotten used to UIS3 I had to have it. (see 'choices...' above) I have several programs that depend on selecting a group of files, and I know how to do that for UIS3 from within the program, so here's a question: How does the built-in selector return a group of files? Via command line, or..? Sorry such a long post! Lots of thoughts on Geneva! And, how to make prgs more Geneva-aware. One last thing, TempelMon and Sys_mon ran like champs under Geneva, and behaved as well as could be expected. Sys_mon was a little confused since Geneva owned all the memory, but still..! Another last thing, I also had the recursive error quite a bit till I disabled MDD, but I miss the button fix! Oh well. Warp9 still (apparently as well? I'm having some sense of slow-down..) works. -Neil ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 106 Fri Aug 06, 1993 S.EAKINS [SCOOTS] at 22:43 EDT Dan, The one issue that hasn't been discussed yet is printing. No matter what app I'm using, I still have to wait until the app finishes printing before being allowed to do anything else. I know that Geneva replaces the AES enviroment, but does this also effect printing? Hope that I'm making centz, been up for over 18 hours now. Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 107 Sat Aug 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:39 EDT Jeff, Yes! That's exactly what Edith does under G. But it also does it at other times, so it's not G's fault that Edith is programmed in a non-standard way. Too bad, since Edith is nice. Martin, You CAN make the NeoDesk keyboard equiv close the window just like the Geneva one does. (If the close-window combo in G is alt-esc, you can make alt-esc do the same thing in NeoD.) Here's how: Create a NedD macro that closes a window, and assign that macro to alt-esc. Yes, I know it sounds like a conflict with the same key combo in G, but it works. When a NeoD window is topmost, alt-esc closes the NeoD window; when a GEM app window is topmost, alt-esc closes its window. Neil, Thanks for the excellent report. Methinks there is am auto-folder button-fix somewhere.... Ah, SilkMouse, if I recall right, has one built in. I use SM all the time and would not be without it ever, so I *know* it works with G. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 108 Sat Aug 07, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 10:11 EDT Dan, I've done a little more messing around with Geneva and Multi-Desk Deluxe. Here's what I've found: It doesn't seem to matter which resident accs are loaded into MDD, It always gives me GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY error when I use it with Geneva (even when no resident acc are loaded). Everything works great for a while but eventually I get the GEMDOS CALLED RECURSIVELY error. Oh well... I simply get around the problem by loading the accs I need from within Geneva's Task Manager. Also, I load any acc that can be renamed to .PRG or .APP to as a program or application (such as Gramslam, Grammar Expert, STalker, etc). This way when I quit the .PRG or .APP Geneva will give me back the memory they used. When Geneva loads them as accs, then they are forever in memory (untill I turn off my machine <G>). If anyone knows of a way to "unload" accs from Task Manager, please let me know. Also, here's a tip I use to launch preset combinations of programs since I can't seem to get Geneva's RUN or RUNSLEEP commands to work. I use NEODESK's macro feature to launch programs from the desktop (Atari Works, Grammar Expert, and ProCalc is one of my preset combinations and I still have more than a MEG of free memory). After I launch the set of programs, I save the macro to a function key (any key will do actually) and the next time I want to write I hit my "word processing" preset function key - if I want to draw, I'll press my "graphic design" function key - and so on. Of course this only works with Neodesk. A word of caution ,however, I've found that as of version 0.95 of Geneva - Pagestream 2.2b doesn't like the Limit Memory option in Geneva so it will take _ALL_ memory when loaded. If you include it in one of your macros, it will eat up all of the memory and leave nothing for any additional programs. I get around this be loading my Atari Works, Grammar Expert, and ProCalc macro and THEN manually loading Pagestream into the remaining memory - Hey...it works for me. Well that's about it ..... Take Care ....... Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 109 Sat Aug 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:17 EDT Dan, I've looked into the item-selector scroll-gadget problem on the TT (not the ST yet). Here's what I have found. With a bare system -- TOS 3.06, AUTO-folder GENEVA.PRG, JARxxx.PRG, no DAs, the scroll gadget misbehaves just like it does on a loaded system. As soon as you use it, it recedes behind the scroll bar, showing a trace of itself just past the left side of the scroll bar, and cannot be used in that session. I *did* discover once or twice that it reappeared in a session (although it still behaved the same way when I tried to use it), but I can't duplicate that now. MDD is not the culprit. As for MDD, I will run without it for a few days and see if the "GEMDOS called recursively" errors are reduced. ... Here are a few other observations and suggestions: REQUEST: If the Task Manager could *please* remember where I placed it last, I'd be grateful. When I boot up I place TM in the upper right corner of the screen, and of course it comes back there if I close it and reopen it. But I'd like to see it remember its place on the screen as part of the config. REQUEST: A FILEMAN that augmented (supplemented, maybe, not replaced) the item selector. (You'd then have TASKMAN and FILEMAN, so you could add PROGMAN and call this Win4 ... <grin>) OBS: NeoDesk can be placed in the TM's Flags list, even though it does not respond to the "Description" line. I have it set up normally (all the usual flag settings) and have added alt-shift-N as the hotkey to get back to NeoDesk from any other app. (I needed this to make sure that the TT was back in NeoD after running another app remotely via CodeKeys.) Works fine. REQUEST: Something besides the dialog that pops up when you are about to run a single-tasking app. I don't know how others feel, but I see little usefulness in that dialog, since G automatically puts the other apps to sleep without harm anyway (although I know it can be turned off, and that's what I have done). I'd like to see some sort of character or note in the GEM menu bar of a S-T app telling me that it is single-tasking, or maybe in its GEM window (yet another gadget!). OBS: I have had a lot of e-mail regarding G and whether it will do any mtasking without NeoD. As my little essay pointed out, NeoD is not needed in any way. Gribnif's own advertising of G needs to point out that IT is the multitasker, not NeoD, if you know what I mean; I am not suggesting that owners of G should not also use NeoD, but rather just stating what is not obvious to many or perhaps most of the potential users: G multitasks just fine all by its lonesome, and a desktop is not required, period; it is optional, because of the fact that G has its own way of loading DAs and applications from its own built-in GEM menu and from the Task Manager's menu. Desktop operations, despite what we all might like, are usually single-tasking functions such as file copying once we take program launching out of the desktop. A good desk accessory will do that very nicely (can anyone live without MaxiFile once it's installed?), and G takes care of the program launching. For that matter, a desktop that does not take up much RAM, such as TeraDesk, makes an ideal single-tasking desktop to switch in whenever you want all those neat functions that use icons, and you can instantly switch back to G to launch an app. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 110 Sat Aug 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:48 EDT Mayer, Thanks for the info. It's a mystery why the RUN and RUNSLEEP commands aren't working. Try a very simple one, in which you know the path is correct, and in which you know that there is no RSC file to cause a problem. Place that program in the root of C: and try putting it in the RUN command, and make sure that the GEM.CNF you are editing is the one that Geneva is using. (Geneva looks for the one in the root of C:, not the one that is in the Geneva folder.) MDD has not been causing any problems with the TT or the ST here, so you may want to see what auto-folder TSRs are running at the same time as G. Even though G is not sensitive to the fastload-bit problem that plagues the standard AES, you should turn off all FL bits when testing. BTW, are you running NeoD as a shell in the SHELL line of GEM.CNF? If that works, the RUN command should, also. Dan, The item-selector scroll gadget is messed on on the ST, too. Just checked. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 111 Sat Aug 07, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:42 EDT Neil, There is also an .ACC here in the Atari libraries of GEnie called BUTTNFIX.ARC. I think I found it in the Utilities lib. I believe it is freeware, and written by Codehead Charles F. Johnson. If you cant find it let me know, I'll send it to you. (it's small) I have to agree with Al though, I have used SilkMouse for quite some time and love it! While I don't remember it's including a fix for the problem, Al's info is usually correct. Anyway, SilkMouse is such a nice addition to the system, you will wonder how you got along without it! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 112 Sun Aug 08, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 11:08 EDT Thanks Matt, I have buttonfix from several sources it seems like, it's really no big deal, since Flash2 has a funny look to it anyway under Geneva. (The bottom gadgets and the top bar.) Other observations: Quitting programs seems to be about the only way I can get Geneva to have any problems! -Programs which watch a rectangle continue to act on those events if they have a window open. Is this to be expected or not? -Some programs which work fine single-tasked, do not allow other prgs to be loaded after them. Specifically LaserShell, after which an out- of-memory error is returned, and TimeworksDTP 1.1, when disk-damaged errors are returned. -I have an old analog clock acc which has an event_timer of 1 minute, but it seems to receive constant events to redraw. Problems with event- timer? Some suggestions/questions: -I love the send-to-back buttons that appear, and work! on all the windows. It would be great to have a MINIMIZE button, that would shrink the window to, say, icon size, so you don't have to re-size big windows in order to switch easily between programs. Tempus' method is pretty clean, I always wondered what having those icons was for! -I didn't expect to get all that developer(?) help with Geneva, but now of course have more questions. Is anyone interested in providing an explanation of the new event messages ala AES 4.0? Or, will there be any more docs with the final release? Thanks for the Taskman code, lots of future fun study! (Dan, ever heard of CB? ..(g)) -What does the _IDT cookie signify? (looks like idiot!) Hard to come up with suggestions, since I know I haven't scratched the surface yet. In fact, I was able to pretty much just jam Geneva in the Auto folder and run it easily before even reading the docs, it's that smooth! Later, Neil P.S. Hope everybody's trying the tear-off menus, it's incredible to see this work in my own programs! Dan, I am in awe.. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 113 Sun Aug 08, 1993 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 16:07 EDT Al - You said in a Genie Lamp Story you had Idealist. Which version? I'm using 3.3 and the program locks up in Geneva when I try to select Front, Back, or both sides printing. The ACC version works fine in this respect, however. To All- I saw a patch for Gemini 1.21 to allow it to operate correctly for MultiTOS, which naturally would also work for Geneva. Anybody want it? Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 114 Sun Aug 08, 1993 C.CASSADAY [Chris C.] at 17:58 EDT Neil Davis, The _IDT cookie is a new cookie installed with AES 3.3 and up. It is the International Date & Time setting for selecting between 12 and 24 hour clocks, as well as European and American style date/time stamps. ie mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy Chris ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 115 Sun Aug 08, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 20:19 EDT Thanks, Chris, Geneva must install it, I didn't see it in the docs, not that I've read them twice yet. Also, I know there's other Laser users out there, so ... I've noticed funny re-draws on re-entering Laser and loading a file. The selector seems to draw part of itself in the wrong place, and the windows don't re-draw correctly after that. It seems this funny redraw can be created by running a program that changes to low-res to display a picture! Strange, hunh. Oh yes, I know someone's noticed this. Geneva expects me to have a newdesk.inf, and I have a desktop.inf, so Neo doesn't let me change resolution from the menu, but alerts me that newdesk is corrupted. Do I just rename desktop.inf or what? ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 116 Sun Aug 08, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:51 EDT Neil, One way around the problem of GEM windows that get in the way is ctrl-alt- spacebar, which puts the foreground task to sleep. Unless you really need to have that app active to do a task (a telecomm program, for example), putting it to sleep is the best way to get its menus and windows out of the way. Martin, IdeaList 3.2. It has worked OK so far, but I'm not sure I have tried that option in a long time. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 117 Sun Aug 08, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 23:13 EST All, I've just loaded GEneva on my system yesterday and I'm really impressed at how solid the Geneva/NeoDesk combination is when used with ST high resolution. I've gotten very few errors and the ones I have gotten in high resolution are primarily due to missing the fine points in the installation instructions. The same cannot be said of ST medium resolution. It seems like I'm constantly refreshing the screen by pressing Shift-Alt-Undo. What I'd really like to see changed in Geneva, thus far, is that when the Task Manager is used to set Activation keys for tasks, the hot key selected is not saved as part of the Task Manager configuration and is only good as long as it remains in memory. Initially, I saw this activation key feature as a complete replacement for Codehead Software's PopIt, but not if you have to key in this information each time you use Geneva. I tried to use NeoDesk's macro editor to set up a macro that I could use to do this key assignment reestablishment task quickly, but I couldn't get it to work. So I used CodeKeys instead and split it into two macros chained together. Another feature I was looking for in Geneva/Neodesk, that I like when I use Microsoft Windows at work, is the implementation of program groups. There are only so many icons that one can put on the NeoDesk Desktop so hopefully program groups with their own windows will be in a future release. What I'd like to see changed in NeoDesk is its implementation of the corner clock. First, I don't care for the display of seconds - hours and minutes are good enough for me. Second, I'd rather see a 12-hour clock than an am/pm one. The am/pm clock takes up too much space on the menu bar. Third, I'd like to see a hot key in NeoDesk to toggle the corner clock display on or off. Fourth, when I tried to use "Install Application" to identify certain programs that I did not want the corner clock displayed in (by not darkening the Corner Clock square), I still got the corner clock in those programs anyway. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Gerry K, I have set up my copy of NeoDesk to have an environmental variable for LookIt which reads: LOOKIT_MEM=512 This limits the amount of memory that LookIt will grab, when executed, to 512K. Most users set this environmental variable so that they can exit from LookIt to their favorite text editor and, when finished, directly return to LookIt. Perhaps, it would be a good idea for multitasking Geneva users to use this feature, too. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Bill, >> I am running the latest version of WordPerfect, April 91. >> Try what I may, I can't get WPSTART.PRG to run without >> crashing, and I think this may be the reason that WP >> itself will not load up properly. I have taken off fast >> load bits ... I know that on my old configuration of TOS 2.06, HotWire, and Warp 9, I could not exit cleanly from WP_START.PRG without calling up the Warp 9 Control Panel and turning off fastload, from within the program, first. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 118 Mon Aug 09, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:10 EDT Martin, >You said in a Genie Lamp Story you had Idealist. Which version? I'm >using 3.3 and the program locks up in Geneva when I try to select >Front, Back, or both sides printing. I use version 3.20 without any problems printing. The only thing I found that I needed to do is to have the Keep Desktop/Menubar flag on. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunday, August 8, 1993 - 11:04:22 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 119 Mon Aug 09, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 21:12 EDT Another Geneva oddity. Calendar 6.3a sometimes writes two capitals instead of one at the beginning of a word -- but not always! Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 120 Mon Aug 09, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 22:25 EDT Bill, >Another Geneva oddity. Calendar 6.3a sometimes writes two capitals >instead of one at the beginning of a word -- but not always! This is not a Geneva oddity. Calendar has had this problem for a while. It does not matter what TOS or other programs you are running... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Monday, August 9, 1993 - 10:20:14 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 121 Mon Aug 09, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 23:11 EDT All, I've just noticed something funny, when you QUIT GENEVA the underlines for keyboard equivalents are the same, _C_ontinue or _C_ancel, (in 640x400 MONO). Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 122 Tue Aug 10, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 00:29 EDT > -I love the send-to-back buttons that appear, and work! on all the windows. >It would be great to have a MINIMIZE button, that would shrink the window to, >say, icon size, so you don't have to re-size big windows in order to switch >easily between programs. Tempus' method is pretty clean, I always wondered >what having those icons was for! > Hey, use the Sleep option. On my system I have the sleep keys set to <ctrl><alt>z. I type these keys and the window and app disappear. I actually like this better than both the Mac and PC's methods of handling window overload. I'll also buck the trend on the program manager clone function. I detest the program manager - file manager combo used in MS windows. Lets instead keep things integrated neatly. How about a tool box icon. This widget acts like a disk drive except that files stored in it are only links to the real files. Now I could have this gadget called Apps and in it would be perhaps Atari Works, Aladdin, Edhak, EasyDraw and whatever. Or I could have a folder in this toolbox call templates and have common atari works template that I could use to autostart Atari Works. So it gives you the function of Program manager, but more flexibility and better integration with the file system. Yes again NeoDesk leads the way!! John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 123 Tue Aug 10, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:01 EDT Jeff, Yes I am loading WARP9.CP into MDD. Should I not? Dan, Is it really necessary to run Buttonfix or an equivalent? Does not the delay in scrolling built into Geneva as an option perform the same function? Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 124 Tue Aug 10, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:25 EDT Jeff, I have not had the capital letter oddity with Cal 6.3a under TOS 2.05, though I have had it with earlier versions of Cal. If there is a latent bug in Cal, perhaps G. has activated it. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 125 Tue Aug 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:56 EDT Mike, I haven't seen the problem of hotkeys not being saved, either on the ST or the TT, but I also haven't run Neo and G in med-res, either. Program groups are being considered for Neo 4.0. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 126 Tue Aug 10, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 08:00 EDT Mike: To save an activate hotkey, I think you have to create a set of flags for that specific app from taskman by creating a NEW entry. That is, if you only set the hotkey by selecting the prg in taskman, then editing its hotkey, that won't be saved. Also, I'm always in Med-res, only TW-Publisher has re- draw problems in multi-task mode, but none in single-task mode. I meant to start something like work-group files for plain old Neodesk, an acc something like Dashboard(?) for windows, but alas, the school year looms, when there is no more time for hacking. Wish I'd had Geneva in June! Actually program groups shouldn't be too hard from Geneva, should they? I have two questions: How can I get a copy of the icon Neodesk uses for a specific app into my program? For example, user selects a program icon from neodesk window, drags to my window (or icon), and that program's icon will now appear in my window. I guess I could load and hunt neodesk's rsc file for the icon's text, but that needn't really relate real closely to the program's actual name. Question 2: How do I instruct Geneva to load and run several apps at once, or is it as easy as a command line? And again, how does the selector send multiple files to an app? Thanks, and have to mention again how solid Geneva seems to be. If I'm not trying to crash it, it fades into the background, all is as normal, EXCEPT for the main desk menu with all the apps! Whoa! 8:00! Gotta go! ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 127 Tue Aug 10, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:15 EDT Everyone, I have found a definite problem with using MultiDesk and Geneva. Actually, this same problem would occur under any multitasking system. The result is that quitting programs will only work properly if you quit them in the reverse order they were started in. I do not want to sound critical of MultiDesk. It is a very good program, which made an assumption about how programs get run, an assumption which had always been true prior to Geneva or MiNT. In fact, NeoDesk makes the same assumption! It just happens to not cause problems because of the way it is done in NeoDesk. Mike S., To set an activation key permanently, you have to set the global flag for a program. This is done by using the "Flags" option with no name selected in the Task Manager window. You can then create a program flag for the particular program you want to alter, assuming there is not already one present. Program groups are on my list for NeoDesk 4. There probably won't be more corner clock options in NeoDesk, for the sake of simplicity. The reason that Install Application does not seem to turn it off when you are running another program is that it is effectively being turned off and then back on almost immediately. If you really want it off, you can set the program for single-tasking. Al, You may have the keyboard equivalent for putting the current app to sleep set to [Control][Alt][Space], but the default is [Control][Alt]Z. Mayer, Desk accessories can be unloaded by using the "Terminate" option in the Task Manager, or by holding the Control key while clicking on their names in the Desk menu. Scoots, Most programs are written to completely lock out other applications when printing. I am sure that in the future, many of them will be made more friendly in this respect, but for now it's unavoidable. Neil, I've used tempus2 quite a bit and have not had any problems. Are you using a different filename, perhaps? The default flags are set correctly for it. I'll take a look at Timeworks and Laser C. The Geneva file selector returns multiple file names by way of a special call, x_fsel_input(). A program has to be specifically aware of Geneva in order for this to work. You do not need buttonfix when running Geneva; it does not have that bug. > Programs which watch a rectangle continue to ct on those events if they have a window open. I believe this is the way it is supposed to be, for compatiblity with the way Atari's AES works. I will double-check this, though. Once Limit memory works, you will be able to use that with the Laser C shell and Timeworks DTP. What is the name of the clock DA you are using? I will try it. Atari has created a standard method of minimizing windows, which Geneva 1.00 will support, but this depends on the program actually knowing that it can be minimized. It cannot work for "old" applications. That's just a limitation of the way the AES was designed. Documentation for MultiTOS functions is available to registered developers. Unfortuantely, I cannot distribute it, for reasons of copyright. The _IDT cookie is part of this documentation. Yes, Geneva does install it if it is not already present. What's CB? Geneva will look at either NEODESK or DESKTOP.INF. I believe it looks for NEWDESK.INF first. Yes, you can just rename DESKTOP.INF to NEWDESK.INF. Martin, Revolver could work the way it did because it partitioned the entire memory and loaded/unloaded entire partitions. Geneva does not do that. Time permitting, I may make NeoDesk modular, so that it can be set to load only those portions it needs, when it needs them. Yes, NeoDesk's keyboard equivs will be standardized. Limit Memory is buggy right now. STeno has its own buffer size feature, anyway. Even in program mode, it will only use as much as it needs. J.Wiles, The Global, Super, etc. file attributes only affect programs when they are running under MiNT, and you have a machine which permits memory protection. I'll take a look at Edith. I have an idea as to why this is the case already. Bill N., If you have run CaradFile as a desk accessory (even just loading it, as long as it has the .ACC extension) will enable sending to other programs. I have tried it, and it does work with Geneva. You can run SETMOUSE at any time to get the other mouse shapes, yes. The fatal error messages do have a message which says that a "break" will happen, but this really just means that a debugger like Templemon would be entered. This comes up as just more bombs on your screen since you don't have Templemon. Dan (with a broken "A" key) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 128 Tue Aug 10, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:57 EDT Gerry, I'll fix that alert. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 129 Tue Aug 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:08 EDT John, ALIAS.PRG, available here on GEnie, does this toolbox-type thing already. Check it out. It won't provide m-tasking, though, but it's a neat way of doing what you want. al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 130 Tue Aug 10, 1993 J.WILES1 at 19:41 EDT Has anyone gotten ICD programs to work with Geneva yet? It seems that no matter what settings I have for these programs, I get the famous message across the top of the screen and then have to reboot. Otherwise, this has been very fun and productive. It will really be great when Dan gets this finished along with NeoDesk 4. Life couldn't be better! Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 131 Tue Aug 10, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 20:11 EDT Dan, Thanks for the info on TERMINATING accs. I can't believe your incredible on-line support!! Keep up the great work! Take Care ....... Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 132 Tue Aug 10, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:16 EDT Bill, you've gotten Interlink to work? As a single-tasking or as a multitasking program? Actually I guess it "works" either way, but I can't do any useful multitasking with it because it hogs the system and won't let go during downloads or while the terminal screen is showing. It also bleeds its own screen through into Neodesk when I try to task-switch back to Neodesk. Changing JAR010.PRG to JAR030.PRG does seem to have eliminated the garbage string of text that Interlink was putting into the Desk menu. Go figure :-) Someone mentioned unzipping files in the background. How do you get that big window in ST ZIP 2.3 to close or shrink so that you can see what your doing when you switch back to the Neodesktop? Or are you using some other program to do the unzipping? ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 133 Wed Aug 11, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:06 EDT Bill, >I have not had the capital letter oddity with Cal 6.3a under TOS >2.05, though I have had it with earlier versions of Cal. If there is >a latent bug in Cal, perhaps G. has activated it. I have seen this happen under TOS 1.6, 1.0, and 2.06. And I have seen it before the Beta-Version of Geneva was around. So I will repeat that it is not Geneva but something that happens in Cal. :-} ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday, August 10, 1993 - 11:43:54 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 134 Wed Aug 11, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 00:09 EDT All, I am now using Squish II from Trace Technologies and have Squished almost all my programs now, including GENEVA.PRG in my AUTO folder without any problems. In the AUTO folder I run PINHEAD.PRG ... POOLFIX4.PRG ... UNSQUISH.PRG ... GENEVA.PRG ... DATADIET.PRG ... NEOLOAD.PRG (as well as others), this seems to be very, _VERY_ stable. I have been booting GENEVA and NeoDesk from a SINGLE DSDD thanks to both Squish II and Data Diet 2, until my Quantum 240 arrives later this week.:) The only problem I had with Data Diet 2 and GENEVA, was trying to save edited icons from NeoDesk, (but this should be fixed soon). I have removed all 'Data Diet controls by program name' and #C from my DATADIET.INF file. Also, Pha$ar 4.08 works with GENEVA with Multitask OFF, or else things start poking through the background and the keyboard response slows down. Gerry K., (I alway boot with GENEVA) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 135 Wed Aug 11, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:50 EDT Neil, Use Neo's icon editor and look at the icons. You can see some of the hidden ones by looking at the RSC file. G can be passed up to five filenames in the item selector, and they will all be run. Or you can use the RUN statement as many times as you like at the start. Dan, Your "A" key looks fine at this end! You are right about the "sleep" hotkey. Jeff, No, I still get the infamous bombing from most ICD prgs. David, You have to drag the ST Zip windows down, out of the way. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 136 Wed Aug 11, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:14 EDT POV Raytrace's COMMAND.TOS doesn't seem to work with GNVA_TOS.PRG. It does seem to work well enough with Multitos and Minniwin.App. Just for the heck of it I tried Minniwin.App with Geneva but no go. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 137 Wed Aug 11, 1993 M.GARRISON1 [Lazarus] at 18:41 EDT I am having problems getting Geneva to work properly on my Falcon. It loads properly, but it locks up when I use the font selector in Atari Works or use the 3D editor in Cyber Sculpt. I can accept that Cyber Sculpt may not work properly in a multitasking environment because of its age, but Works should work, and I am hoping that the same fix will work on both programs. Also NeoDesks built in text viewer is not displaying on the screen. I assume that it is otherwise working since I have to hit "q" to get control of the desktop again. I also have a 4meg 1040 tos 1.2 and Geneva's compatibility is much better on the ST, but it doesn't seem to work with Powerdos, and I have gotten used to the speed of Powerdos. Mark ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 138 Wed Aug 11, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 21:44 EDT Dan, Thanks, yes I had already discovered that Cardfile will send if it is loaded as an ordinary ACC. I ought to have said so! I am puzzled that when running a program from an active icon on the Neodesk desktop things are extremely slow getting starting if I double click with the mouse, so slow that I often invoke the program twice by mistake, whereas using a hotkey is more or less instantaneous. Jeff Wiles, I am having no trouble with the ICD boot for the Atari. But I am not running its cache since I use MasterCache 2.75, which seems to be trouble free and is more powerful. Jeff ST-er, I expect you're right. I'm just reporting what I find, and I have never had the double capital bug with Cal 6.3a until I ran it under Geneva. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 139 Thu Aug 12, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:16 EDT Lazarus, I now have a copy of Works (we got our Falcon!) so I will try it. I will also check into the 3D editor in Sculpt. I also have plans to get it working with PowerDOS. J.Wiles, I have found the bug with respect to the ICD programs. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done in version 0.95 to avoid the crash. By the way, this only happens when running the setup programs, like HD_FORMAT and HD_UTIL.PRG. ICDBOOT itself works fine. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 140 Thu Aug 12, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 21:40 EDT Al: No, I mean from a program's point of view, when it receives a msg from Neodesk that an icon has been dragged, etc. I know what MY icons are, of course. Dan: The clock.acc is an ancient one from the genie libs, just a very basic acc shell with a re-draw function that uses the vdi to draw a simple clock, every 1 min with event_timer. No need to bother, I'm sure you have enough to do! I was running Atari's Planetarium (nice little prg, really!) the other night for the meteor shower (too hazy) and I noticed a couple things. One, it automatically set itself to single-tasking, and I was curious how it did that. Two, the right mouse button's function didn't work properly, but acted like the left button. All for now, -Neil p.s. CB, C-Beautifier, a nifty little utility that re-formats your c code! Also, I don't have any problems with Tempus, just with UISIII from the auto folder. Again, booting it later works fine. And, renaming desktop.inf to newdesk.inf allowed changing res with Geneva, thanks. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 141 Sat Aug 14, 1993 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 05:14 EDT The "Program Manager" function is easily reproduced by setting up macros to load various NeoDesk desktops. I use these: P = Publishing S = Standard U = Utilities T = Telecomm Each desktop has my most commonly used programs spread around the main window. It works - very well. Also, if you _really_ want to be Windows-like, download "Alibi", which will create a small program that loads a program you can select. So you can create a _bunch_ of little 656 byte files, throw them all into a folder labeled "Main", "Applications", "Accessories" or whatever, set that folder on your desktop, and... Pseudo-windows. At least, as close to Windows as I want to get when I'm at home. I tend to 49 clones on my ship and wrestle with them daily. Mt TT is a breath of fresh air when I get home. Buffalo Bob at 21:41 Friday, 13 August 93 ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 142 Sat Aug 14, 1993 S.DEITZ [Steve] at 05:30 EDT Dave, You were able to run POV under MTOS? I can get the CLI to run, but cannot get the POV68000.TTP to run. Well, it loads without error but stops there and passes control back to the CLI. What did you do? ----STEVE---- ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 143 Sat Aug 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:52 EDT Buffalo, That's just the sort of approach I've been trying to tell Neo users about, and you said it more succinctly. Alibi is a wonderful utility. Unhappily, it won't provide multitasking under Geneva, however ... unless I failed to set something properly in the flags. I'll try it again. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 144 Sat Aug 14, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 11:57 EDT Yes indeed I have gotten POV running with Command.Tos and Minniwin.App under Multitos. I'm using a Falcon but I believe I had memory protection turned off so it should work on an ordinary ST. I'll retrace my steps and post how I did it after my current trace finishes (but that might not be till tomorrow...:-) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 145 Sat Aug 14, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 21:41 EDT Anyone else had a program whose windows' gadgets on the right edge, except for the sizer, refuse to respond after "fulling"? That is, you "full-size" a window, but then the fuller, and vertical scroller gadgets don't work? This happens in, of course, a program I wrote...I'm kind of hoping it happens for someone else, but prob' not. Thanks, Neil ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 146 Sun Aug 15, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 16:27 EDT Here's a problem I'm wondering if anyone else has run into. Whenever I run Atari Works I get two bombs upon quiting - every time! I've booted with only JAR10, GENEVA, SPDGDOS and TASKMAN (accessory). Works fastbit is OFF and I'm running with the default flags set. Any ideas on this one? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 147 Sun Aug 15, 1993 M.ERSOFF at 19:26 EDT John, What version of Works do you have? I use Works with Geneva and a _TON_ of auto folder/accs. with no problems whatsoever. I use Works 1.2. Mayer ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 148 Sun Aug 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:53 EDT Neil, Not in the most recent beta copy, no. Al John, Make sure the order in the auto folder is JAR, Geneva and Speedo. Try running without a shell (if you are using NeoDesk as a shell), and see if AW bombs on exit then. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 149 Mon Aug 16, 1993 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 05:11 EDT Al, One thing I forgot to mention was that - if they _really_ want to simulate Windows on the ST/TT - they can scatter the "Main", "Application" and "Accessory" windows around the desktop. BUT... to get a true simulation, they should remove all that other riff-raff. You know, the drive icons, trashcan, printer icon, any program icons... anything of use. I guess you could put ST_TOOL on a function key to complete the illusion. Buffalo Bob ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 150 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 08:20 EST Dan, >> To set an activation key permanently, you have to set the >> global flag for a program. This is done using the "Flags" >> option with no name selected in the Task Manager window. >> You can then create a program flag for the particular >> program you want to alter, assuming that there is not >> already one present. I had been doing what you suggested before I'd posted my question, but went back and looked at it again after reading your response. The trick is, when defining the Flag, to set the "Desc:" value for that flag to "Default Flags" rather than the name of the program or desk accessory itself. -Then-, it will be read when the system is booting; otherwise, it won't. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Neil Davis, Thanks for your response to my question on how to set Task Manager hotkey definitions. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Bill Nichols, >> Another Geneva oddity, Calendar 6.3a sometimes writes two >> capitals instead of one at the beginning of a word -- but >> not always! The same problem is present in CodeKeys v1.3! When one defines a new macro and goes to label it with a description, the first two letters in the first word in the description are always set to be capital letters no matter what, when using Geneva. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- All, CodeHead Software's "LookIt" continues to be a problem program for me. I set up a Flag for it using the Default Flags definition, except that I limited its memory to 512K and I still get the following problems: 1) the menu bar does not work with the mouse - it will, however, accept input using the keyboard provided that you know what key to press, 2) Block Mode will only allow the highlighting of one line for selection rather than scroll up or down several, and 3) my system goes out to never/never land when I exit the program (no bombs, it just can't find the Geneva "desktop". I use a Geneva only, no NeoDesk system and I don't remember having this problem (#3) with NeoDesk loaded as well so maybe LookIt needs a desktop to go to. At any rate, I think that the LookIt problem is fixable if I could only get its Geneva Flag settings right. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 151 Mon Aug 16, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:38 EDT John G., I've got Works 1.20 and I have no problem quitting it. I don't have Speedo installed, though. Does this happen whether or not you open any document windows? Neil, Which version of UIS do you use? I have tried Geneva with several and not had any problems. The most likely reason for Planetarium being single-tasked is that it is using a Pexec() call to run a portion of itself. There is not much that can be done about that. Mike S., Um, it makes no difference what text you put in the "Desc." field. The only time Geneva looks at this is for the name in the Desk menu. From the sounds of it, I am definitely going to have to make changes to Geneva in order to fix the problems with Look It. It's on the list of programs to look into. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 152 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.GARRISON1 [Lazarus] at 18:45 EDT Dan, Have you had any luck recreating my problems with Works and or Sculpt. I have a Falcon TOS 4.04 and Works 1.2 with SpeedoGDOS installed. When you use the Font Face Selector in the Style pull down menu, the computer locks up. Also why is the built in text viewer in NeoDesk not working with Geneva loaded on the Falcon (it works fine on my 1040STfm TOS 1.2). ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 153 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 21:35 EST I have found a set of execution flags which appear to work for Codehead Software's "LookIt" program when run under Geneva. They are as follows: No - Multitask No - Limit window handles No - Limit memory to __ Kb No - Windows off left edge Yes - Redraw upon exiting Yes - Special object types Yes - Rounded buttons Yes - Automatic keyboard equivs Yes - Undraw auto keyboard equivs No - Keep menu bar/desktop Yes - AES 4.0 extended messages The "LookIt" going off into never, never land problem upon exiting is caused by setting the limit memory flag. Apparently, this is one of those programs affected by the "bug with the memory limit feature ... (that) will cause a lockup under certain situations." mentioned by Dan over in Topic 19, Message 121. The one line Block Mode problem and the inability to use the mouse to make selections from the GEM menu bar are caused by setting the Multitask flag. Turning it off solves these problems. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 154 Mon Aug 16, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 23:22 EDT Well, I'm using Works 1.2 and have JAR, GENEVA and SPEEDO loading in that order. It only seems to bomb if I select Page Setup (where it reads the BJ10E.SYS driver) to get a lockup (as I'v esaid, it will even do a tw bomb on me if I only have JAR, GENEVA, SPEEDO and TASKMAN as a accessory running. Maybe it the driver (in some funky way)? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 155 Mon Aug 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:23 EDT Bob, :-) Al Mike, I have Lookit on order, so I'll see what I can find out. Actually, I have Lookit already, but the disk the 'Heads sent was bad. Tried it on 5 floppy drives, with no luck. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 156 Tue Aug 17, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:26 EDT I have noticed that if I use Cardfile under G. to send to my word processor (That's Write 2) it works as usual provided I don't use the copy in MultiDesk MDX, but if I use it once, the next time the display is completely messed up. And other programs get messed up too. This could be partly due to That's Write, which I believe uses some vectors in an unusual though not illegal way - - I am no programmer, so this is hearsay. Aladdin is messed up, and so is That's Write itself. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 157 Tue Aug 17, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 01:44 EDT > ...the disk the 'Heads sent was bad. Tried it on 5 floppy > drives, with no luck. > >Al Gee Al, I sent you a replacement disk for the LookIt! & PopIt! you won in the drawing last week. You want me to have a talk with your mailman? He's giving my service a bad name. <grin> ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 158 Tue Aug 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EDT John, Try loading another driver to see if it bombs then. You also may have a corrupted copy of any of the files that are being loaded into memory. Happened to me on my Win PC today ... and it was just a little utility running in the background, but the thing bombed all day long until I replaced it. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 159 Tue Aug 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:52 EDT Bill, CardFile works fine with Aladdin and all my word processors under Geneva, although I haven't tried it with TW2. Does CF work OK with TW2 without Geneva? Tomas, You mean, a talk with a guy carrying a violin case, if you know what I mean? Actually, your service is tops. Your software is the greatest. Your t-shirts are superb. Your manuals are entertaining. But somebody put some krytonite next to your disks in Peoria. :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 160 Tue Aug 17, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 19:48 EDT Al, Did I miss something. In message #159, do you mean that you are using Aladdin while in Geneva? Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 161 Wed Aug 18, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:43 EDT Al, I checked again, and I have been unable to replicate my problem with Cardfile. However, I identified another one, which I had noticed without taking full note of it. If more than a certain number of characters are "sent" to another application, the last few, i.e. the postal code, are messed up and not all the characters that should be are present. I have not been able to decide just what the limit is, since shorter addresses seem to be sent okay. The problem is the same whether or not Neodesk is uppermost. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 162 Wed Aug 18, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:27 EDT Cliff, Sure, I'm using Aladdin while running Geneva. I'm also using Aladdin and another telecomm program (a very complicated one) at the same time while running Geneva. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 163 Wed Aug 18, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:58 EDT Bill, I'll try CF again right here (under G) to see if all the characters show up: Rio Computers 3310 Berwyck Street Las Vegas, NV 89121 Electronic Gaming Monthly 1920 Highland Ave., Suite 222 Lombard, IL 60148 No, it's behaving nicely. I'll keep checking for any oddities in the days ahead. CF doesn't do any tricks, and since it's merely stuffing the keyboard buffer I can see one possibility -- that whatever else is runnning is dragging down the keyboard rate something fierce. Even that seems remote, though. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 164 Wed Aug 18, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:42 EDT I'm using Aladdin w/ Geneva loaded right now. But the catch is that all other applications are put to sleep and are inaccessible while Aladdin is running. When I quit Aladdin, any other applications will resume where they left off. So as far as Aladdin is concerned Geneva is a task switcher but not a multitasker. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 165 Wed Aug 18, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:22 EDT Everyone, When you tell me what flags you are using for a program, please include the name of the program file as it is stored on the disk. Mike, Thank you for the flags. I assume the program name is LOOKIT.PRG? Lazarus, Unfortunately, I do not have time to go through every bug report as I get it. At this point, I am pretty much saving them until near the end. There is a rule in programming that says that the last thing you wrote is usually the buggiest. Since any bug fixes I make for problems like the one you are having will probably be very small, they are less likely to introduce new bugs than the gobs of extra code I have been adding lately. I will also try NeoDesk's text viewer. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 166 Wed Aug 18, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 14:45 EDT Dan, I noticed the other day that when I deleted a file via the NeoDesk recoverable trashcan (w/ Neo3.04 & Geneva) that the file was still visible, yet attempting a second delete confirmed that the file was indeed in the recoverable trashcan. ??? --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 167 Wed Aug 18, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 21:51 EDT Al, Good idea, I just tried it with my STraight FAX driver and the same thing happens. I have resigned myself to the fact that if I need to use the page set-up, I'll need to reboot the computer. It's amazing that it's only happening to me - must be some munged file somewhere! John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 168 Wed Aug 18, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 22:24 EDT Dan, using the Neodesk developer's kit method for running a program works fine for me in Neodesk 3.04, however, under Geneva the path I've set seems to get changed back to C:\NEODESK when the program runs, so no rsc files, etc. Same set-up only diff is Geneva. Is there a different way to do this under G? And in the same flavor, will there be an upgrade to the NDK? Thanks, Neil Is the answer in taskman? That is, might it be easier to bypass Neodesk entirely if G is running? P.S. Great fun studying the taskman code! Thanks again. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 169 Thu Aug 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:29 EDT David, Aladdin will run in multitasking mode, also. Neil, Are you using a "current path" bare comma in the PATH statement? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 170 Thu Aug 19, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 08:03 EDT Dan: UIS 3.32, just upgraded in June? May? Recently. No real problem, tho, it's ONLY with a tempus2 that's been doctored to use the "normal" or current alternative fsel. Empus Doug: I lost your letter, the prg docs don't have your name, sorry about that! Anyway, the new empus behaves the same way. No problem there either, as I don't really use tempus except as a viewer, I don't know the commands at all. Al: You know I read that in the docs and said, sure, makes sense, OF COURSE the included gem.cnf has that in it already! Just checked, and mine has PATH = .,\geneva Hmmm. I'll check the docs, this doesn't look like the current path bare comma I remember. Thanks! -Neil Dan/Al: Programs run fine as long as there's no resource or data file to load, but I guess that was clear already? ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 171 Fri Aug 20, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:30 EDT Neil, If apps that don't have RSC files run OK but apps that DO have them don't, the problem is the PATH statement. My suggestion is to put your RSC files in a folder called RSC and put that folder in the path. Then the RSC files are always found. I've been doing that for about five years now. (Of course, you must put the RSC folder in the PATH statement. if you are not running Geneva, use GEMENV to create a GEM environment, with the RSC folder in the path statement of GEMENV.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 172 Fri Aug 20, 1993 R.WALTERS7 [Randy] at 21:59 EDT David You can multitask Aladdin with Geneva. It does not have to be single tasking unless you want it to be that way. Regards Randy ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 173 Fri Aug 20, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 22:17 EDT Al: My PATH = ,\geneva , I took out the period. No, the path's not the problem, not the environment PATH I mean. My program sets the path, then tells neodesk to run the prg. However, the path is no longer what I've set it to when the prg looks for its rsc, the path has been reset to C:\neodesk, every time. If I worked regularly on my machine with the same apps all the time (as opposed to 'putzing around') I might see putting all my rsc files in one folder, it seems like something I shouldn't have to do, tho. Dan: I went with the shel_write method if geneva is present, and it works like a charm, so again no problem. I'm curious, tho, it's ok to leave the extensions on the path? I thought you had to truncate that off? Or does shel_write ignore that anyway? Thanks for your suggestions, Al, I do appreciate it! -Neil ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 174 Mon Aug 23, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:04 EDT Neil, Urgh. Yeah, I can see why that would happen. The real solution is to use the shel_write() call, if Geneva is running. Contrary to older versions of the AES, both MultiTOS and Geneva can run a program in multitasking mode while another is still running. And it works from a DA, too. Yup, there will definitely be an update to the NDK. You can see how TaskMan uses shel_write() to run a program. Kevin, The reason is that the recoverable trashcan does its operations in such a way that NeoDesk does not get a message saying "redraw this window". There really isn't any way around this right now. I should be updating the trashcan for Neo 4. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 175 Mon Aug 23, 1993 S.EAKINS [SCOOTS] at 23:00 EDT Dan, This one seems strange... Only in Alladin, my vertical scroll bar fills the vertical scroll area. What I mean to say is that the screen should be showing me all the available lines in that window, but it doesn't. If I click on either the up or down arrow, the window will scroll as it should to display other lines off the screen. The horizontal scroll bar works just fine. Wait a minute, typing this line caused the "reply" window to scroll upward, and the vertical bar adjusted properly. I'm going to go check on the browse window..... Yep, when in the browse window, the vertical scroll bar fills the V. scroll area, even though I have another full page to "browse". I must have way too much time on my hands!!! Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 176 Tue Aug 24, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 18:44 EDT Dan, thanks for the confirmation, I wasn't sure if I was just being lucky with Neo. Shel_write seems to work fine for what I've done so far, just GEM programs, geneva sets all the correct flags, or uses them, I should say. No new questions to distract from your work! It's a great deal already, hard to believe there's still the commercial release to come! (w/ more on that x_wind_tree stuff!) Buying the beta release is one of the few bargains I've managed in the software arena! -Neil P.S. All, your sympathy please. I teach high school algebra/trig, we started today, our school has no AC and no windows, it was 90 today, 90's tomorrow, the kids are surly. (no complaints tho, a great job. usually.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 177 Wed Aug 25, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 23:34 EDT I think this has been covered but I'll bring it up again ;) With the Beta version the keys assigned to activate accessories cannot be saved. Will this be fixed in the release version? One more thing, how in the heck do you select an ASCII character from the ASCII window? I'm clicking on it, but nothing is getting sent to my document (I'm assuming this is the function of this). John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 178 Thu Aug 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:15 EDT John, The beta docs are pretty clear on the ASCII window, but let me try to restate the operation: The ASCII window sends the character or symbol that you click on to the open window or dialog of the foreground app. If the ASCII window is itself the foreground window, clicking on a character won't do anything, since in effect you are sending the character from the ASCII window to the ASCII window. Put that window in the background and it will work fine. (The ASCII window behaves differently from other GEM windows. It is not topped unless you click on its menu bar, so clicking in the untopped ASCII window will not change the status of the foregound app.) As for the keys, I think you are making the process harder than it was designed to be. They do indeed work, and they are saved. The secret is to assign the key combinations WITHOUT having an accessory selected in the Task Manager's list. In other words, just drop down the "Flags" menu and set the key combinations for each app or accessory, then save the Task Manager's settings. If you select an item in the TM list and then choose the "Flags" option, you are changing the flags (including the keys) for that session only. This will be explained carefully in the final user manual. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 179 Thu Aug 26, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 18:35 EDT Has anyone found the "magic flag combo" for the DR T Omega 5.0 midi sequencer yet? I have it running, sorta. But there seems to be some bleedthrough & Omega seems to want to keep taking over as the topped app. Currently I'm using the basic default flag options except I have Limit window handles on & Keep menu bar/desktop on. Thanks, Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 180 Thu Aug 26, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 19:30 EDT With the increased capabilities of multitasking & loading/unloading .ACCs I'm rethinking how I have things set up when I boot. I have 2 general questions - Is there any difference in running an ACC from the root at bootup versus as a RUN command from the GEM.CNF? AAlso, when an app is written to run as either an ACC or PRG, is there a preferred method, in terms of coexisting with other apps? Thanks Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 181 Thu Aug 26, 1993 C.ECKERT at 21:23 EDT The KCS Omega II of Dr. T is having problems with Gem Messages on my setup. The KCS menus pull down ok,and the mouse works ook when I click on the menu, and AS LONG as I USE a DIALOG BOX AND CLICK on it, other mouse clicks will work, BUT mouse messages don't get through if a menu has been pulled down and no dialog box was utilized. Furthermore, MPE's menus don't work at all. With thwe complicated way MPE works, I'll bet we won'y be able to use Dr.T with G. I had hoped at least Omega would run ok as a single task but it doesn't for me. Otherwise, I use G all the time. DAN, there used to be a KCS demo in the MIDI Forum! Thanks ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 182 Thu Aug 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:26 EDT Frank, Have you tried running it w/o multitasking on? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 183 Thu Aug 26, 1993 D.YERKA1 [DAVEY] at 23:32 EDT HI Dan Thought I'd finally drop a line or two. For all you folk worrying about ACC's, MultiDesk, etc. try this if you are using NeoDesk as the Shell (??Who wouldn't??). Go to the OPTIONS MENU select SET PREFERENCES In the dialog box select the EXTENSIONS button Use the scroll arrows to get to an empty extension text entry and add ACC and make sure the GEM button is on. OK button out of the dialog boxes and save the settings. Now when you want an ACC just double click on it Geneva/NeoDesk will load and run it....who needs Multidesk! Dave Y. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 184 Fri Aug 27, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:25 EDT Frank, There is a greater chance of memory fragmentation if you load a DA between two apps and then quit the first app while still running the DA, so initializing DAs at bootup is a better idea (just from that perspective) if you are going to be running them during the entire session. If you need a DA for just a short time, it makes sense to load it on the fly, use it, then kill it. DAs that can be run as PRGs (STeno, STalker, CardFile, Spelling Sentry and so on) can have a distinct advantage as DAs if they use a GEM menu bar within their own resizeable window. I can't emphasize that enough, since one of the primary drawbacks of the GEM GUI is its insistence on a single main GEM menu bar for applications; as a result, if an app is not the topmost one, its menu bar disappears. When you have DAs that have menu bars in their own windows, this is no longer a problem. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 185 Fri Aug 27, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:51 EDT Dan, >> Thank you for the flags. I assume the program name is >> LOOKIT.PRG? Yes, it is. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- John Gniewkowski, >> I think this has been covered but I'll bring it up again >> ;) With the Beta version the keys assigned to activate >> accessories cannot be saved. Will this be fixed in the >> release version? With the Beta version, the keys assigned to activate desk accessories (loaded into memory when the computer is booted) -can- be saved so that they work as soon as the computer is booted. Here's how: Activate the Task Manager. Be sure that no desk accessories are highlighted and select "File" and "Flags". This brings up a listing of your system's flags which are saved in the GENEVA.CNF file. Press the New button. For the Name of your desk accessory, type its file name (e.g., MAXIFILE.ACC, STENO.ACC, etc.). For the Desc: blank, always type Default Flags (this is the big secret). Select the Keys button. Select the Read Key button and type the letter you wish to use to activate the file (e.g., "f" to activate MaxiFile) and afterwards any special keys you want to use as well (e.g., I use Control and (Left) Shift so, therefore, Control-Left Shift-f brings up MaxiFile). Click on the OK button. Either click on the Quit button to stop or the New button to enter another desk accessory. Once you have quit and have returned to the Task Manager window, select "Options" and "Save Settings" from the menu bar to save your new activation key assignments and you're done. If I remember correctly, you need to reboot your computer at this point to get the new activation keys to work properly, but they should work correctly for you from that point on. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 186 Fri Aug 27, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 19:53 EDT Al, Not yet, I was hoping to get it to run as a multitasker before resorting to the single. But I will try it that way as well. Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 187 Fri Aug 27, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 23:33 EDT Mike and Al, Thank you both for the excellent explanation. It works as advertised now and can safely delete my PopIt program file from my HD. I have already typed the accessories 'proper' names in the Desc: field and it semms to work fine (rather than Default Flags). One thing that has driven me crazy, and that I haven't ever been able to get to work is the font assignment in the Taskman accessory. I hace sucessfully assigned fonts in the help program, but nothing but 'System Font' shows in the button (and the button is not selectable - I would think it would still pop out a menu with one selection "System Font" - that one has got me stumped!) Thanks! John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 188 Sat Aug 28, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 00:06 EDT Davey, Who needs Multidesk? Anyone that uses old accessories. While there's been some discussion here about the diminished usefulness of Multidesk due to MultiTOS & Geneva, I've found a definite reason to keep it in my setup. So far I've found about a half dozen ACCs that won't work properly as directly executable ACCs, so I have the ACCEXT in GEM.CNF set for ACC only and use that ext for any ACCs that DO work properly. Meanwhile I have Multidesk set in Neodesk as an installed APP with ACX as the extension, and I use that for any of those older ACCs that don't work with the other method. Presto Chango! All my ACCs run directly from the desktop with a double-click. I don't have MultiTOS, but I'd guess the second half of this (Multidesk as installed APP) would work in the same manner. Al, Thanks for the explanations about ACCs vs PRGs. Since you refer only to initializing the ACCs, can I assume that the "boot from root" and RUN command in GEM.CNF are functionally equivalent? Frank ps. On the ACCs as executables, it WILL work with TOS 3.05 if you modify the NEWDESK.INF but once again only with some,not all ACCs. ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 189 Sat Aug 28, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 06:02 EDT Well, I know this is off-topic, but we'll get to the _on-topic_ stuff in just a bit... Regarding all the comments like "...Windows on the cmputer where I work...", won't it be nice when they're leaving messages in the PC BBS's about "...Geneva (or NeoDesk) on the Atari where I work..."? As for Windows, Program Manager, et al., hey - it IS a powerful system, IF you've got the patience, time to spend tweaking cryptic .INI and .PIF files, and enough hardware horsepower to propel a joint U.S.-Russian Mars mission, but if you're confined to anything less than a 33MHz 386DX with 8 megs of RAM and a 100-meg hard drive, it's just another pretty (inter)face, with no more usefulness than a vase of flowers on top of a toaster oven - it looks nicer, but the flowers have nothing to do with the T.V. dinners... That said, there ARE some features of Windows' PM that _I_ would like to see incorporated into NeoDesk, such as the ability to create icons that represent _command lines_ which pass information to programs, or program/file icons that _also contain_ command line info for that program or file - specifically, I'd like to be able to create icons for NeoDesk _macros_ (which would run a macro WITHOUT having to remember which hotkeys run which macros) - or the ability, as in Windows, to minimize applications - as has been suggested by others here - which would allow me to SEE ALL AT ONCE which apps are active, and perhaps, also as in Windows, what files are loaded into minimized apps... Hey, keyboard equivalents are great, but if I wanted to do that much typing I'd be using DOS! I get annoyed having to switch back and forth from the mouse to the keyboard all the time - and trying to remember all those keyboard commands for NeoDesk, Geneva, CodeKeys, LGS, MaxiFile, EdHak, and every other program/accessory is getting a little to taxing for my poor brain. I know a lot of you 90-wpm typists out there want a keyboard equivalent for EVERYTHING, but there are a lot of us rodent-lovers who'd like to have a "mouse equivalent" for everything! Enough of that - on to Switzerland! Cubase - it seems to me that it shouldn't be TOO difficult for either Steinberg or Gribnif or both to somehow get this program to work under Geneva, as it was written to be multitasked under Steinberg's M-ROS "operating system" - although that "system" seems to be somewhat limited and not terribly functional - but on the other hand, Steinberg has always maintained, since way back in the days of their original Pro24 sequencing program, that accs and TSRs should be kept at an absolute minimum when running their programs. They seem to intercept all keyboard and mouse events in ways that are incompatible with EVERYTHING else that is interested in them - from FormDoIt to Warp9's mouse effects and screen saver to Little Green Selector's key equivs to, well, many others that I've long since discarded and forgotten because... Cubase is just such a GREAT sequencing program! We Cubase users have learned to sacrifice much that is good and desirable from many other Atari developers in order to use the awesome powers of this mighty... oh, excuse me, I seem to be "drivelling" a bit... Anyway, now Geneva is here, and the days of SINGLETASKING, even for us lowly 8MHz 68000-slaves, should be behind us! PLEASE MAKE CUBASE MULTITASK! _ANYBODY!_ So, let's see... oh yeah! Dan, I can ALWAYS get the "GEMDOS called recursively" message at bootup, right after all the auto programs have run, if, as I mentioned in topic 19, I set the windows dialog in Taskman to use a GDOS font (via G+Plus v1.5). And as for the "shadows/outlines" settings leaving dialog doo-doo behind, it's ONLY the "outlines" setting that does it - I turned outlines OFF and shadows ON for "outer boxes", and haven't had the problem since. I also haven't been able to get EdHak to awaken without its editing screen since... Regarding TOS programs, should the NeoDesk CLI's ability to run TOS programs in a window work under Geneva? I tried it once with ZIPJR.TTP running a batch file to back up various INF and CFG files to an archive, and found that if I clicked on "Sleep all" on the dialog box that came up, the CLI opened and then quit and nothing else happened (as far as I can remember), but if I clicked on "Sleep this" the CLI opened and ran ZIPJR.TTP, which then did its batch- backup, and exited normally. I _think_ I was running the CLI as an accessory at the time, but I can't recall for sure, and I haven't had a chance to experiment with it again yet. This would be EXCELLENT if I could run TOS programs under GENEVA via the Neo CLI!!! Regarding Aladdin, I'm using the default flags in Taskman, and find that I cannot put Aladdin to sleep - I get the "Taking this action will cause the current app. to be put to sleep" alert, but when I click on "continue", I'm still in a fully awake Aladdin. I'm using Aladdin v1.62, and in singletasking mode, as per the default flags. Also, I got the impression from the docs that there were supposed to be more alternative mouse shapes in the setmouse folder than just the shadowed arrow and the hourglass - am I mistaken, or were they inadvertently (or intentionally) left off the Geneva disk? I _do_ have a copy of the original "Mouse-Ka-Mania" archive, which has the accessory for loading (if you aren't running Geneva) and editing mouse shapes - and I do hope Charles F. Johnson is considering updating this program to a full-featured mouse-shape editor, now that we have Geneva - as well as several single-frame and animated mouse shapes which work fine with setmouse.prg. I particularly like the animated "atom" with which I replaced Geneva's hourglass (after editing it to have a transparent background) - mondo futurismo! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 190 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:38 EDT Mike Squire, The new activation keys take effect immediately. (In fact, the only changes in Geneva's settings that don't take effect immediately are the Windows settings; they need a reboot.) But they won't show up next time unless you save the Task Manager's configuration. John, The font selection will have a non-scrollable window when you don't have any kind of GDOS loaded, but the size selector can be scrolled horizontally. You'll always have a choice of sizes. In ST HiRes, for example, you should have a choice of 8, 9, 10, 16, 18 and 20 pts. Set the size you want and exit, then save the Taskman's configuration. You'll get the smaller font (and the smaller GEM windows and dialogs) the next time you boot up. BTW, I am uploading some more screen shots. Included are some that show the effect of smaller font sizes. Frank, No, the "boot from root" (love that one!) thingie and the run command don't do the same thing. Keep in mind that a desk accessory is ALWAYS multitasking -- desk accessories were designed that way -- although not all DAs are created equal in the cooperation they offer to other apps on the screen at the same time. And a DA that can be run as a PRG if you change the extender won't necessarily behave the same way as a DA that you run by Geneva's on-the-fly method. I haven't seen any DAs that give trouble under Geneva (although I am sure there may be some that do). Which ones aren't working right? Make sure the fast-load bit is fof before giving up on them. (Dan's code is more forgiving of the FL bit, but there are still problems that clear up when it is turned off, on ocassion.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 191 Sat Aug 28, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 16:09 EDT Al, I tried "booting" and "running" the Warp9 control panel, & sure enough it did act differently. When it booted, it acted more like a TSR, but when I used the run command,the control panel stayed onscreen at the end of the boot process, more like an active application. So what you're saying about the subtle differences supports that perefectly. Thanks. The DA's that wouldn't run as installed apps were - File search (from an old Compute mag disk, I think),SuperCal,Time is Money,(both PD I believe) and GenPatch.acc, a file loader companion to Genpatch which is a MIDI sysex handler written by a pre-Codeheads John Eidsvoog. But it doesn't really bother me because the workaround with Multidesk works perfectly for me. Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 192 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:24 EDT Chuck, It's obvious you have been approaching Geneva with inventiveness and elan. That's a big help. As for the keyboard equivalents, Dan has done everything possible to make them industry-standard keystrokes. For example, the task-switching combination is alt=tab, just as in Windows, and the menu-start combo is alt-spacebar, and so on. It should be easier to use Geneva because of these things, not harder. Yes, there is, indeed, a way to see what apps are running concurrently; the Task Manager's list shows just that kind of thing. I'd like to see the TM pop up the way the Windows TM does, with a d-click on the desktop, but that's a small matter. I have also played with Charles Johnson's mouse shapes via SETMOUSE, and they're great. I have a red main pointer with a black shadow, and that alone is peachy-keen. If you are running Aladdin in ST mode, running any other app from the Geneva menu or from TM will put Aladdin to sleep. Even clicking on "Geneva" from the desk menu will put Aladdin to sleep. I wonder if you are trying to put Aladdin to sleep without awakening Geneva's System Menu? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 193 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:50 EDT Frank, That makes sense, since MDD is able to handle DAs in a semi-supervisory way. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 194 Sat Aug 28, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:47 EDT Dan, >>Mike, >> >> Thank you for the flags. I assume the program name is >> LOOKIT.PRG? Yes, that's correct. Also, with EDHAK.PRG or EDHAK.ACC (v3.01, the present latest version), I recommend setting "Limit Window Handles" to "On". With this flag in the "Off" setting, any files opened by EdHak (including the Clipboard's SCRAP.TXT), whether still being edited or closed, seem to be set to "Read Only" status (but they're not) and can't be edited by any other program. Craig Harvey, the author of EdHak plans to fix this problem in a future v3.02. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- John Gniewkowski, >> I think this has been covered but I'll bring it up again >> ;) With the Beta version the keys assigned to activate >> accessories cannot be saved. Will this be fixed in the >> release version? That's not true. In Geneva beta v0.95, the keys assigned to activate (desk) accessories -can- be saved. The trick is to always use a Desc: of "Default Flags" for any desk accessory that you're loading into memory when you boot. For example, if I wished to assign an activation key of Control-Shift-f to CodeHead Software's MaxiFile desk accessory, I would 1) call up the Task Manager, 2) be sure that no tasks are highlighted, 3) select File and then Flags from the menu bar, 4) press the "New" button, 5) type MAXIFILE.ACC for Name:, 6) type Default Flags for Desc:, 6) press the "Keys" button, 7) press the "Read Key" button and then press the "f" key, 8) select the Control and Shift boxes, 9) select the "Quit" button, 10) select the "OK" button, 11) back at the Task Manager menu bar, select Options and then Save Settings from the menu bar, and 12) reboot. From that point forward, your selected activation key for MaxiFile should call up that desk accessory without any problem. This is what I've done with my setup for numerous accessories and all of them work fine. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 195 Sun Aug 29, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 13:42 EDT Umm... I *can't* turn off the blitter in my Falcon. Besides, even *if* I could... GACK! :) I dunno, I also get that "WINNI error -33" alert every time I start Geneva on the 14meg Falcon. I guess that just means that more trouble is to come. <G> I hope Dan can get ahold of a 14 meg Falcon to check out these problems I'm having. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 196 Mon Aug 30, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 00:41 EDT Al, Well the only kind of GDOS I have loaded is SpeedoGDOS, but I still get no scrollable window. I can change the size of the screen font, though (ugh!) Not quite sure what's going on here, thanks for helping out. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 197 Mon Aug 30, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 03:22 EDT Dan, A few more observations about various programs running under Geneva: Cubase: Even with the GEM.CNF file bypassed and no auto programs (except DataLite - because Cubase's partition is compressed, SuperBoot, Jar 10, and Geneva) and no accessories except Taskman, Cubase will not work. The program seems to load with no problems, but as soon as anything causes a dialog box to appear, the keyboard and mouse are either locked out completely (if the dialog came from a selection from Cubase's menu) or they are locked out of everything EXCEPT the menu bar (if the dialog came from clicking on something in Cubase's main screen), in which case trying to put Cubase to sleep via the desk menu has no effect - Cubase stays awake, but no keyboard or mouse events are recognized. I tried setting all the flags "off" for Cubase, and setting all the dialog, window, and misc. options to the equivalent of not having Geneva installed - no go. I also noticed that if I use the keypad enter and 0 keys or the spacebar to "start" and "stop" Cubase's playback, the respective on-screen buttons become "depressed", but the playback never begins. MaxiFile as a prg can't be put to sleep or task switched, as clicking on the screen anywhere outside of MF's "box" only rings the system bell (as it normally does without Geneva), and hitting the put-to-sleep keys has no effect at all. Otherwise, it works fine - but I have to re-run it everytime I want to use it. I'm using the Little Green Selector (usually), but I haven't tried laoding MF as an accessory and calling it from LGS yet... Dr. Noonan's VKiller program seems to work fine, but if any NeoDesk windows are open when it runs, the ND windows, though inactive, appear on top of VKiller's screen, until VKiller activities cause those areas to be redrawn... DrumKitz!, a desk acc/program for editing the Alesis D4 MIDI drum module, seems to work with NO problems, whether loaded as an ACC, program, or non-resident ACC from within MultiDesk Deluxe (run as a _program_). I haven't tried all the program's functions yet, though... TAFN! -- Chuck -- P.S. Can't wait to see ND4 running with Geneva!!! -- C -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 198 Mon Aug 30, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 04:45 EDT Al, I thought that by using the CTRL-ALT-Z combo, I didn't _need_ to "awaken Geneva's System Menu". After all, Geneva is awake enough to recognize the key combo and respond with the "Taking this action..." alert. In any case, I just tried clicking on "Geneva" in the desk menu, and sure enough, Aladdin dozed off! However, I don't believe that will work from MaxiFile, since MF just responds with the system bell if you click anywhere outside of it's "box". Oh, well - guess I'll just have to load it as an accessory (8^})... Also, I wasn't implying that Geneva's key equivalents aren't easy to use; I was just pointing out that I'd prefer to have the alternative of using the mouse in many situations where that is not now possible, such as with ND3's macros - Okay, yeah, I know I can click on the Options menu, then click on "Execute/change macro", then scroll through the macros to the one I want, then click on "run", but it's just not the same as clicking an icon on the desktop. I know this would require some changes in the way macros are handled - possibly requiring each macro to be saved as a separate file - but hey, it's just a suggestion/request/submitted for your approval... kind of thang (8^}). As for the Task Manager's listing of active apps, why not make it more like a ND window, and allow the apps to be displayed as icons, as a user- selectable option? And regarding your previous message to ??? concerning changing system fonts; have you experienced the "problem" of NeoDesk, when running in ST Hi- res, looking for it's medium-res RSC after a reboot if you select the medium system font and save the setup? I mentioned that to Dan in another message - ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 199 Mon Aug 30, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 05:10 EDT Al, Sorry, I, uh, forgot to finish my previous message. What I was going to say was that Dan acknowleged that NeoDesk 3 doesn't handle fonts very well (at least in connection with Geneva), but that that was something that would be dealt with in NeoDesk 4. --Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 200 Mon Aug 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:53 EDT John, I have an idea. In Speedo, you can scale all the fonts, so a lot of folks just scale them and don't have any extra point sizes installed via OUTLINE.ACC. But Geneva isn't Atari Works, and doesn't know about a point size that is not installed, so when you look for installable fonts via Speedo, Geneva may not be finding any. Check this out; it may be the answer. (In other words, create an extend.sys that has 8, 9, and 10 points for all speedo monospaced fonts.) Sheesh, I also just realized that you may not have any monospaced fonts installed. G can only see a monospaced font; all others are ignored. Chuck, Maxifile works fine as a DA. But you are right; when run as a PRG, it can't be handled well. Why aren't you just running it as a DA, either at bootup or on the fly? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 201 Tue Aug 31, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:35 EDT Chuck, Yes, I've seen the problem with the Neo desktop when you change to a smaller font size. I run my G beta half the time without a shell, using the 9-pt size, avoiding the desktop messup. The problem with putting Aladdin to sleep isn't something to do with your technique; I explained it badly. You can't put Aladdin to sleep when everything else is asleep, since G won't let you shut everything down at once. That's why you can only put Aladdin to sleep if you awaken something else first. Sort of like waking up the guy on the next shift before you let the guy on the current one doze off.... Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 21 Message 202 Tue Aug 31, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 04:13 EDT Dan, I forgot to mention... I ran GemView 2.4 from NeoDesk under Geneva... I had so many windows thought I was gonna catch a code! (8^})... 2 ND directory windows, GV's info window, and _15_ picture windows all open at the same time! I only stopped there because that was all the picture files I had in the directory I did a batch-load from, and it was the last thing I wanted to try before hitting the sack - I figured 18 was enough (for now!)... And, this just in... I just decided to play with the ASCII table thing, and found out that if I _double-click_ on a character in the ASCII table that's also assigned to a desktop icon, IT RUNS THE PROGRAM!, or opens the directory window, or whatever! Well, maybe this seems obvious to others - after all, it's just sending the selected character to the topped application, which, in this case, is NeoDesk - and maybe there isn't really anything excitingly useful about this "feature", but I dunno - it was just so unexpected, I feel _sure_ there must be some cool way to take advantage of it! I'll think of something... This is too cool... -- Chuck -- P.S. Oh, one other thing I meant to point out about the use of the medium system font in Geneva: When I had Geneva set up with the medium system font, I could NOT use the _large_ sytem font in any applications that allowed changing the size of the screen font (such as EdHak 3.01). I hope this is something that can be changed in the release version... ...But wait - there's more! Something odd that's been happening since I installed Geneva: occasionally the alternative file viewer listed under "PATHS" in ND3's Set Preferences menu gets erased. I'm using EdHak for this. I haven't been able to make any connection between the disappearance and the running of any other programs or accessories so far. Reloading the .INF file brings it back, so I know my .INF files aren't being corrupted on disk. Very strange... -- C -- ------------